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  1. #41
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think the problem is it turns us into some kind of caricatures, when there are many concrete benefits that you have with Ni. One is to be able able to reframe events, which comes in handy if you're for example a psychologist, because you can actually help people who are stuck in a mental rut. I think we don't see it as a simple black and white thing but how to communicate that in a way that encompasses all the different aspects of what any one thing is. That's an artform in itself. ;D

    I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
    In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
    It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
    I think one major problem is in commmunication and HOW you communicate a subject. Language is somewhat limited and in real life you have to condense things to communicate anything. Otherwise you'll not say anything at all because it'll come out in a crude and biased way no matter how hard you try.
    I like your point about reframing. And re: confirmation bias, I think a lot has to do with self-awareness, and any type can have that, or not have that.

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  2. #42
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Ne dom judginess

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    As a few have already mentioned, I think that INJs (both F and T) can be in the habit of saying things more declaratively than they realize.

    Here’s the post Esoteric Wench alluded to, which highlander wrote. I agree that it’s a good ‘un. I especially like (and agree with) the way he phrased the paragraph about Ni doms.

    And I agree with sentiments expressed (in this thread) that the psychic/mystic shtick does INJs a disservice.

    I guess I forgot to say something about Ne doms in my post. I think they seem to not be judgey at all on the outside but they can be a bit judgey on the inside because their auxiliary function is an introverted judging function. So, the Ti or Fi does have some judgeyness to it.

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  3. #43
    violaine
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    Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer.

    I have a constantly running inner dialogue of hunches. I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figured it out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I'm not super risk-averse. I love taking a bit of a risk. (Actually, thinking about it, my entire life is made up of taking leaps to get to where I want). I don't know if that's Ni related.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I think everyone SHOULD question their perceptions...I guess it's just finding a balance between doing it too much.
    well said. The media and other aspects of popular culture encourages people to lash onto sound bites and then treat them like wholistic, absolute truth. We are taught flawed thinking skills especially when it comes to passing judgment on other people, so it is a refreshing to hear someone see the value in rethinking assumptions.

    It may be in part that I apply the skill of empathy on a daily basis for my jobs, especially when I play music for the sick and dying, or when I'm teaching students with any level of special needs, but I'm comfortable viewing situations from perspectives outside my own. This is a strength because it provides a lot of information to work with to understand and make choices, but it has two major drawbacks. The first is I can so easily absorb other perspectives that I get overwhelmed by all the subtle (and masses of unconscious) information which takes a long time to process. The second drawback is that I rarely get angry because I end up understanding too much about the person to just feel some of that certain, simplified view of the world that justifies and bolsters up good old rage. I can still feel hurt, but I know enough about why the person did it to see the cause that produced the effect. I still need to find ways to express frustration over my own hurt even if I do understand what happened ( or in some cases I have a few compelling theories that could explain the hurtful behavior)
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  5. #45
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I have to admit this is something I wonder about. There are so many INFJs, in particular, who seem quite certain about their insights into others. I mean, I've heard other types say stuff like this too, but the "I have never been wrong about anyone, ever" thing seems to be very INFJ.

    I tend to think that "I have never been wrong about anyone" is a necessarily unbalanced viewpoint and is more indicative of an inflated ego or over-confidence, than it's indicative of N vs S. However, even people I would consider more mature and balanced Ns often seem to say "when I feel a certain way, I'm never wrong about people's motives - even if it only happens sometimes", etc.

    I just don't relate to this a great deal. My personal opinion is that I am indeed an Ni user, but that I am also a 6 enneagram and that this makes me question myself and my insights all the time. I don't have enormous self-confidence about my insights into people. One of the things I am working on, actually, is trusting my gut instincts more readily. Also, hanging onto my first impressions of people, and paying more attention to those, instead of letting them get swept away on a tide of warm feelings when I get to know someone better. I am finding more and more that those very first impressions are usually accurate. But I doubt they are 100% accurate. And I think that both N and S types can have very accurate gut feelings. I also have the problem sometimes that I get very strong feelings about someone or something but I can't quite put my finger on WHAT those feelings are, or to what conclusion I should follow them.

    The area where I use Ni very freely (more consciously than I do in everyday life, perhaps) and am highly confident about it is in the aesthetic/cultural areas where I have some expertise. I've had a lot of confirmation in those areas, both from within myself and from others, that my insights, patterning and connection-drawing are unusually insightful and accurate (for what's that worth, as far as you can say "accurate" in the area of the arts.) But that's something different, to me. Other human beings are such wild cards. You can discern patterns of behaviour and trends and develop more understanding of how others act, or will act, based on those. But there seems to be an N tendency to think that Ns understand others better than others understand themselves. Sometimes true, perhaps...but nebulous at best.

    So does all this make me more of an S? Or am I just an SJ-like INFJ who doesn't take her own instincts too seriously, perhaps not seriously enough, sometimes...which is what I suspect.
    I think one shouldnt mix intuition with life experience. one thing is for sure: one can never be sure what other peoples motives are. Its an equation with infinite outcomes and even if you think you have narrowed a possible peoples behaviour down to only a few results, you can at some point just flip a coin and pray for this or that to happen. Thats what separates people from machines.

    Intuition is a way of perceiving the World. The very general difference between a Sensor and an Intuitive is that the sensor is more in the real world while the intuitive is more in a fantasy world. Thats about it. Intuitives that think they have a better understanding of people or thinks like hunches or epiphanies or whatsoever, have lost it. We are all prone to the same simple concept of cause and effect and deduction and induction like anybody else. It may be possible that intuitives are more likely to come up with stuff, cause they think out of boxes but thats no magical force or whatsoever.

    I'ld rather have the theory that a sensor is due to his foundation in reality more likely to have a better understanding of people than an intuitive is. Just due to life experience. But everything beyond that is religious nonsense or mystical nonsense and I wouldnt go too far.
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  6. #46
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer.

    I have a constant running inner dialogue of hunches. I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figuredit out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I'm not super risk-averse, in fact I love taking a bit of a risk. (Actually, thinking about it, my entire life is made up of taking leaps to get to where I want). I don't know if that's Ni related.
    It definitely sounds Ni-related.

    I relate to some of what you say here. Flashes of something, but then wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, and getting tripped up that way - yeah. That's part of my whole "listening to the little nagging voices more" project. I feel like my feelings towards people often cloud the issue and make things very hard to read, though. Some people I don't "read" all that much because I'm just not that interested in them. If I develop romantic feelings toward someone I find it extraordinarily difficult. Even just warm platonic feelings in general can cloud things. I want too much to give them the benefit of the doubt then, I think - even if the voices are screaming at me.

    I get a ton of feelings/impressions coming at me all the time - but I don't exactly have a quiet mind (more like racing mind) and perhaps there is too much background noise to know what the message is, often...

    I...kind of relate to what you say about people reading? But from what you say I think I came to it later. I mostly had at least a close friendship or two throughout my life growing up, but overall I had a sort of "I prefer the people in books, because they're sooo much easier to get along with" thing going. I feel like I was more INTJ-like for a long time. Though now I don't think I'm INTJ-like at all. But I used to be more interested in concepts than people, for sure. That has changed, probably especially since age 25 or so and it makes sense as personality tends to settle down by then.

    I don't come from a very sociable family although aspects of my life have always been very social. We always tended to do our own thing and not get very involved with other people, I think. (I think that may have placed a bit of a handicap on me that I later had to overcome, actually). We're all shy in our own different ways - all IxxJs. I think I've actually turned out to be the backslapping extrovert of the family and it's probably partly because I've moved away and met a ton of different types of people, but it's partly nature too, I guess. The more I think about it, I think a lot of the feelings I've expressed in this thread have to do with the dynamics I grew up with. The way I've turned out though, I'm both more ready to adapt to other people than the rest of my family - and also more easily hurt by other people. Unless I'm much mistaken. (Though I am an awful lot like my dad.)

    As much as I like other people, they scare me too. Their unpredictability and capacity to hurt others scares me, and even if I were to tell myself "oh, I can see what you're doing and why", it wouldn't change that unpredictability and capacity to hurt.
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  7. #47
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think the problem is it turns us into some kind of caricatures, when there are many concrete benefits that you have with Ni. One is to be able able to reframe events, which comes in handy if you're for example a psychologist, because you can actually help people who are stuck in a mental rut. I think we don't see it as a simple black and white thing but how to communicate that in a way that encompasses all the different aspects of what any one thing is. That's an artform in itself. ;D



    I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
    In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
    It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
    I think one major problem is in commmunication and HOW you communicate a subject. Language is somewhat limited and in real life you have to condense things to communicate anything. Otherwise you'll not say anything at all because it'll come out in a crude and biased way no matter how hard you try.
    Many good thoughts here and I just finished a post about the difficulty feeling anger when viewing multiple perspectives also. I enjoyed reading your post because it expresses a deeply thought through approach to life and relating to other people. I'll retread it because there is a lot there.

    When you mention the limitations of communication are you implying that it is easy to sound more certain and final than what the actual thought processes are? I think that has happened to me, and I feel frustration with language because it always feels like a crude representation of the actual concepts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #48
    violaine
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    Yeah, I was going to say that perhaps you were focused on things other than people... (But I'm on my phone and not able to edit my posts quickly enough). And perhaps you were not so much of a sideline dweller. I was definitely that, for reasons you prob understand and so I just turned to watching people.

    And lest I sound um, pretentious or something, I have to say I feel dumb as a rock sometimes - like the time I didn't notice my driving instructor had two fingers and part of his hand missing until the eighth lesson. (And the whole needing at least eight lessons to learn to co-ordinate all the parts needed to drive. But, hmm, my biggest problem then was that I always needed to know what the aim of something was. What I was working towards. I'd just mess things up otherwise. The down side of having a forward focus.)

  9. #49
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer. I have a constant running inner dialogue of hunches.

    I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figuredit out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I don't know if that's Ni related.
    Man, I suck at this. I might be better at hunches when it comes to some situations or actions. I can see a sort of domino effect there, but not people. One situation comes to mind where a new person came into a circle of friends, and for some reason, he provoked suspicion in me. I told the friend who invited him that I thought there'd be trouble. He laughed about it. And this guy kept showing up and everyone was getting closer..he fit in right away. It annoyed me.. I was hoping to say "I told you so" when he screwed everyone over. Fast forward a year -- or to the present - and he's one of the funniest as well as observant people I know. It was stupid to not trust him. I respect him nowadays, but it just goes to show what a poor initial impression I had, based off of trends or patterns. And this isn't exactly an isolated incident. It also happens in the reverse. Someone I might initially get good impressions of ends up causing a lot of drama later.

    Not that I'm totally crap at reading. It's much different if I have actual things to go by (probably Se). It's best for me to ignore things that aren't there.

  10. #50
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

    I'm maybe a little too self-aware or too reluctant to contradict myself and look like an idiot, to do this. But so many people will tell you that they were right about someone all along, when you know from what they said that they totally changed horses mid-stream. I have an ESFJ friend who would do that all the time. She'll be quite infatuated with someone for a while, going on about how lovely and wonderful they are - then when things go a bit wrong, you'll hear her saying "oh, I never liked her. I always knew she was dodgy/up to no good/not a nice person. I'm never wrong about people" (yeah, I've heard her say that). Hmmm.
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