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  1. #31
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    On my run today, I got an idea of a way to illustrate how I feel Ni is, compared to Se, Si, and Ne.

    But I don't have time to do it right now. Hopefully by tomorrow.
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  2. #32
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    On my run today, I got an idea of a way to illustrate how I feel Ni is, compared to Se, Si, and Ne.

    But I don't have time to do it right now. Hopefully by tomorrow.
    Why? vs What's that? vs When? vs What if?

    Heh just a joke. A nice bad joke...

  3. #33
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    I'm also an INFJ who's an e6. Don't count out being an e6 as having a big hand in your uncertainty with your Ni. Second guessing (or more like eighth guessing) myself too much is something I really struggle with.

    Here's another possibility: do you have low self-esteem? Since Ni is a really subjective function that can't be readily explained to anyone else outside of the person themselves and focuses on things that most other people aren't focusing on and could sometimes come to "conclusions" that no one else around seems to share, an Ni-user with low self-esteem could struggle with having faith in their own inner voice that has little to no external validation.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  4. #34
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I related to your OP, Silkroad, and I do not have certainty about any other human being on the planet including family. It is far too easy to assume to be correct based on confirmation bias. Since coming to understand human perception better and how we filter out information based on our expectations, it is clear that each person is in great danger of assuming accuracy as a result of confirmation bias. Fear makes us in even greater need for reality to be what we expect. It will never be smaller than our comprehension and that is frightening, especially when relating to people because we can never know for sure who will hurt us. It is why inflated egotism can easily translate into someone limiting their ability to learn.

    I have spent my life making a continual effort to understand other people. What I have learned is not that I am "never wrong about people", but rather that people are complex and dynamic systems and that it is not possible for any human being to fully comprehend another. Observing a human being is like observing a deep river that is constantly changing and that contains many layers of currents. Even if we can analyze components of personality, the way these combine is like an ever shifting kaleidescope. When you start to really get a feeling for what another person is, it is almost humbling in its vastness.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #35
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    You're INSFJ.

  6. #36
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    I would say that sensors deal more with what is certain or what what appears on the surface to be what is, whereas an intuitive would question these perceptions.

  7. #37
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Could be extreme introversion. I think is tend to second guess themselves a lot. Also, I've noticed the inner reactions they have can be way off base because of a bad experience so they react to that negative experience rather than the actual person
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #38
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    As a few have already mentioned, I think that INJs (both F and T) can be in the habit of saying things more declaratively than they realize.

    Here’s the post Esoteric Wench alluded to, which highlander wrote. I agree that it’s a good ‘un. I especially like (and agree with) the way he phrased the paragraph about Ni doms.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I was referring to judgment expressed being different than judgement applied. If you look at some of the different types, I think you can see how this plays out:

    Te doms (ENTJ, ESTJ) - They clearly leap to judgments and they express those judgments to everyone around them

    Ni doms (INFJ, INTJ) - They might communicate an opinion and come across very forcefully in that opinion (because the extraverted function is a judging function) but inside their minds, they are constantly evaluating all of the information that's coming in and navigating towards a point of view. That point of view changes. It isn't static. They are dominant perceivers.

    Fi doms - As it relates to their Fi values, these are very strongly held. It's the "center" of them so to speak. I once knew an ISFP very well. On the outside, she appeared quite flexible, relaxed and would just go with the flow. You couldn't get her to express an opinion. Question: "Where do you want to go to dinner?" Answer "I don't know". She refuses to pick a place. It was one of many cases where I would ask her what she thought about something and she would just say, "Well, I don't know." However, in other ways, she was not particularly flexible. There were a number of things where no amount of logic or persuasion could be used to get this person to change their mind. It's as if there were certain principles she had that simply were not open to change. She wasn't open to new information. I recall the line, "what's good enough for my parents is good enough for me." What? It used to drive me batty - this combination of indecisiveness on the one hand and inflexibility on the other - in an opposite way to how I seemed to think.

    So, the bottom line is that I think judginess relates to the dominant function and whether or not the function is extroverted or introverted. If a person has a dominant extraverted judging function then they are judgey and sound judgey. If they have a dominant introverted perceiving function and an auxiliary extroverted judging function then they will sound judgey abut are far less so than they appear to be on the outside. If they have a dominant introverted judging function and an extraverted perceiving function then they will appear to not be so judgey on the outside but will be much more judgey on the inside. Finally, if they have a dominant extroverted perceiving function then they will not come across so judgey and won't be so judgey. Anyway, that's what I think.

    Also, I know "judgey" is not actually a word.
    And I agree with sentiments expressed (in this thread) that the psychic/mystic shtick does INJs a disservice.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #39
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    I'm also an INFJ who's an e6. Don't count out being an e6 as having a big hand in your uncertainty with your Ni. Second guessing (or more like eighth guessing) myself too much is something I really struggle with.

    Here's another possibility: do you have low self-esteem? Since Ni is a really subjective function that can't be readily explained to anyone else outside of the person themselves and focuses on things that most other people aren't focusing on and could sometimes come to "conclusions" that no one else around seems to share, an Ni-user with low self-esteem could struggle with having faith in their own inner voice that has little to no external validation.
    No, don't have low self-esteem - it was lower when I was younger but that's never been a huge problem for me, probably mainly as I come from a very supportive family. I think these days it's average to the high side of average. However, speaking of family, my parents particularly tend to worry, be anxious, and see the possibilities for what can go wrong, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the e6 and maybe this question generally.

    I'd be interested in your perspective, do you have any other comments about this question generally? Do you think it's good to question your intuitions/perceptions or do you try to do it less than you already do?


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I related to your OP, Silkroad, and I do not have certainty about any other human being on the planet including family. It is far too easy to assume to be correct based on confirmation bias. Since coming to understand human perception better and how we filter out information based on our expectations, it is clear that each person is in great danger of assuming accuracy as a result of confirmation bias. Fear makes us in even greater need for reality to be what we expect. It will never be smaller than our comprehension and that is frightening, especially when relating to people because we can never know for sure who will hurt us. It is why inflated egotism can easily translate into someone limiting their ability to learn.

    I have spent my life making a continual effort to understand other people. What I have learned is not that I am "never wrong about people", but rather that people are complex and dynamic systems and that it is not possible for any human being to fully comprehend another. Observing a human being is like observing a deep river that is constantly changing and that contains many layers of currents. Even if we can analyze components of personality, the way these combine is like an ever shifting kaleidescope. When you start to really get a feeling for what another person is, it is almost humbling in its vastness.
    Related to this a lot, thanks.

    I feel like when I make very definite judgments about others (tending to be negative), it's almost like a coping mechanism to deal with them in (or out of) my life, but I know it's limiting in some respects at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    You're INSFJ.
    You know, I think that's quite possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I would say that sensors deal more with what is certain or what what appears on the surface to be what is, whereas an intuitive would question these perceptions.
    I think everyone SHOULD question their perceptions...I guess it's just finding a balance between doing it too much and not enough...


    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Could be extreme introversion. I think is tend to second guess themselves a lot. Also, I've noticed the inner reactions they have can be way off base because of a bad experience so they react to that negative experience rather than the actual person
    In my case, definitely not extreme introversion or even close. I'm an outgoing introvert (I get "what, you're an introvert? But you're a people person!" and that kind of thing a lot), and kind of "ambivert" in a lot of ways. I'm actually inclined to think it's more likely to be very introverted Ni-doms who rely on magical thinking, perhaps not being sufficiently in touch with what the real world is actually like. Not too sure about that though.

    What I would say though is that bad experiences (in particular) remind me of all the other similar bad experiences. So if I have a bad experience with someone, if it seems to have been a bit of a pattern in my life, that person will come to represent all the other people and incidents that were similar, in a sense. At that point I tend to get a sort of "deja vu, but too late" feeling...

    I think I have better than average people skills. On the other hand, I tend to get blindsided by other people turning out to be assholes.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post


    And I agree with sentiments expressed (in this thread) that the psychic/mystic shtick does INJs a disservice.
    I think the problem is it turns us into some kind of caricatures, when there are many concrete benefits that you have with Ni. One is to be able able to reframe events, which comes in handy if you're for example a psychologist, because you can actually help people who are stuck in a mental rut. I think we don't see it as a simple black and white thing but how to communicate that in a way that encompasses all the different aspects of what any one thing is. That's an artform in itself. ;D

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I related to your OP, Silkroad, and I do not have certainty about any other human being on the planet including family. It is far too easy to assume to be correct based on confirmation bias. Since coming to understand human perception better and how we filter out information based on our expectations, it is clear that each person is in great danger of assuming accuracy as a result of confirmation bias. Fear makes us in even greater need for reality to be what we expect. It will never be smaller than our comprehension and that is frightening, especially when relating to people because we can never know for sure who will hurt us. It is why inflated egotism can easily translate into someone limiting their ability to learn.

    I have spent my life making a continual effort to understand other people. What I have learned is not that I am "never wrong about people", but rather that people are complex and dynamic systems and that it is not possible for any human being to fully comprehend another. Observing a human being is like observing a deep river that is constantly changing and that contains many layers of currents. Even if we can analyze components of personality, the way these combine is like an ever shifting kaleidescope. When you start to really get a feeling for what another person is, it is almost humbling in its vastness.
    I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
    In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
    It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
    I think one major problem is in commmunication and HOW you communicate a subject. Language is somewhat limited and in real life you have to condense things to communicate anything. Otherwise you'll not say anything at all because it'll come out in a crude and biased way no matter how hard you try.

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