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  1. #21
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Dude, I said in the context of getting stuff done and of course I was OVERSIMPLIFYING it. Fe is also about social pragmatism. Don't you think I would know about Fe as my leading function?
    Actually, I'm only responding to you partly.

    It's more about something on my mind in general. There's something very off when the stereotypes of EFJs are kind of tame and moral and appeasing, and the Fi types are the expressive ones. Funny that introverted feeling would be so expressive. Something else confusing to me is when Orobas says she needs "direct-ness". I think Fe doms can already be pretty direct.

    I don't know where you stand on this exactly though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Actually, I'm only responding to you partly.

    It's more about something on my mind in general. There's something very off when the stereotypes of EFJs are kind of tame and moral and appeasing, and the Fi types are the expressive ones. Funny that introverted feeling would be so expressive. Something else confusing to me is when Orobas says she needs "direct-ness". I see think Fe doms can already be pretty direct.

    I don't know where you stand on this exactly though.
    Yeah I was also slightly confused. Fe doms are typically very direct but they tend to choose where to put that directness. I would say it's more controlled but really depends on the overall goal. If they don't see the value or usefulness in being direct or if the situation is tied to a desired outcome, then they may be less direct. Otherwise, they will be very direct with you. Again, this is oversimplified.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm reading this and laughing -- reminds me of one of my bosses who sent me this long memo about conference room reservations and how she had made them all (that's MY job ...??) and mentioned "we'll be having lunch in 11I." I went around to talk to her to make sure she had thought of all the stuff I know has to be thought of, like, did she schedule break-out rooms, etc. etc., and while I'm still irritated she went ahead and did my job for me (can't delegate to save her soul), I felt like at least it was going to be done right -- only to have people calling me up on the day of the deposition asking me when lunch was going to be delivered. Um ... I don't know ... I was supposed to get lunch? Yes! because it says right here "We'll be having lunch in 11I." Note that nowhere does it say that I was supposed to order it!

    Tell these people you need specific instructions and you're ready to work, but you want a deadline and to know who you're supposed to report to. Next time you get some vague crap as what got thrown at you, make them firm it up, and if they won't, at least be sure to end the conversation with, "Ok, I'll wait to hear from you on this, right?" -- Look them in the eye and get an agreement. It also helps if they can see you writing things down while they're talking. Make notes. Don't talk to anybody without pen and paper or something to type on, so they can see you writing down points that you're supposed to follow up on.

    Also report what you're doing as you do it, and preface it with "Following up on our conversation last Tuesday, I have done such and such toward the goal of blah de blah. What else would you like me to do on this?"

    Next time you are in a meeting, you take notes and let them see you taking notes, and then recap when they're finished stating the plan and the responsibilities. "Now, as I understand it, Bob and Mary are doing this, and I'm doing that, and it needs to be done by this date, is that right?" You need someone taking meeting minutes and circulating them after the meeting. If no one else is doing that, you can do it.

    Cover your ass, it's called.

    Oh, P.S., some management people have the irritating habit of saying We when they mean You. Jump in and say "Which We? Me We or You We? 'cause that was some dirty looks you gave me last time We were gonna get together and do something." Don't be shy -- call them on it. You need better instruction. This is not your fault.

    Oh -- declining work -- "Sorry, my plate's kind of full just now." You might get some push back. Come back is, "Yeah, no, sorry, can't ... I'd be glad to help you out another time, ok? If there's nothing else, I need to get back to it, actually -- catch up with you soon!" and keep them moving along.

    PPS (last one, I swear) -- the person in the example I gave is ISTJ, so no Fe involved at all. My other boss is so freakin' indirect sometimes it makes me laugh inside because I think of the old TV program of Lassie the dog. Lassie the dog could indicate all kinds of things just by barking and dancing around. Sometimes I want to say to my ENTP boss, "What? What's that, Lassie? Timmy fell down a well?" because he's so vague and indirect, he may as well be barking and dancing around, for all I can get out of it. JUST ONCE, I'd give my teeth for a "I need this tomorrow by noon" or similar clear and unequivocal statement. It's usually more like 10 minutes of free association and I'm supposed to intuit somehow out of that hash what he actually means. *sigh*

    Oh, one more tip. If you can get away with this, use it -- when the person starts in, act a little distracted and say you're in the middle of something, would they mind please sending you an email and you promise you'll read it as soon as you can. Half the time, if you force them to document what they're about to say, they will think better of it and leave you alone. And if they don't, you have the crap instruction in writing to refer to when they ask you why We didn't get right on this.
    Last edited by Tiltyred; 04-23-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #24
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    Any manager or professional worth his or her salt knows how to balance politeness, friendliness, and a sense of inclusion with proper, unambiguous communication of ideas and tasks. If things need to get done, then people need to know what to do. Directness is a communication tactic like any other. I'd think that the types that are known as social game navigators would understand all of this.

    The stories in this thread are hilarious but tragic.

  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I don't think this is about Fe/Fi because Fe-dom are often direct, but they are extraordinary at finessing also. I think communication/interaction styles are most relevant here. ESFJs are get-things-going types & ENFJs are in-charge, and I see both as being rather direct & specific in these matters. However, my ISFJ mom does that hinting more than anyone I know, and I could see this as the ENTP's shadow popping up.

    I actually am also prone to the informative communication style, which is typical of IxFPs. I hate obscure hint dropping though. Instead of asking for a ride, I would just directly state the need (as opposed to hinting at the need). At worst, I would say, "I need a ride home. I don't know how I'm going to get home otherwise", and then see what the person says. This is a way to feel-out whether people are open to helping you with something they don't owe you.

    I prefer directness in general though, which I DO think is a Te thing (not Fi). Lack of being direct/specific in planning something you actually want to do can annoy me a lot, in an inferior Te triggering sort of way. It's funny though, naturally I prefer to be blunt like that, but I sense it can seem demanding or rude, and I don't have the Fe finesse, so I tend to feel people out via informative communication. I state needs/preferences, but often with deadlines or timeframes attached (which is a part of the need), and then I allow people to meet it in the way they prefer, or even refuse to meet it.

    So when other people say stuff like, "It would be nice if we could do X someday", or "We need to do Y in the future", then I'm left wondering when, where, & how? When is "someday"? Tomorrow, next week, 5 years from now? I want to pin down a specific time/date. Otherwise it's just someone tossing out a random idea they have little intention of fulfilling. I want/need to cement the potential it has to happen by giving it some external structure, often in the form of a time/date.

    Now the ISFJ uses the informative communication & background interaction style also, as do both IxFPs & INTPs, but I think Fe comes into play here when it comes to stating the need. IxFPs will be more comfortable stating their need directly & pinpointing the desired, factual terms of it (both due to Fi awareness & comfort with the validity of individual needs & Te bluntness); whereas Fe types desire to create a consensus on the need so as to establish it as some kind of objective need, not just their individual need, in order for it to be valid. Fe types often take on other's needs as objective, so that the needs become the Fe types' needs too, and so they expect the same reception, I guess. Instead of stating a need clearly, they become super indirect & try to make people see the need to begin with, that way they can all agree that it's even needed to begin with. This is extremely passive. It's the worst in ISFJs, IMO, and I suppose INTPs may have this issue also (I'm not personally as aware of it in them). So the ENTP was probably acting in shadow a bit, because I don't find the typical ENTP quite so passive/indirect. Both Ne-dom are "get things going" types, and while they use informative communication, they are usually too impatient to play such games.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #26
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hi everyone-your ideas and feedback were really awesome-I thought Zbucks thoughts about the "lack of Te" to be especially helpful.

    As a follow up, a few more questions:

    1. What are some phrases I can use to politely decline additional work I dont have the bandwidth or time for? If I say, "I dont have time to do this right now", then it is pointed out that "well bob has already done this..."
    Sometimes when that happens to me at work I will offer to do a small, easy-to-me portion of the work if and only if the other person can take care of, or find someone else who can take care of, Part A. I find that 85% of the time they will either just drop the issue or do the whole thing themselves. Worst come to worst, I have to do a small portion of the work that I have specifically chosen. That way you cannot really be faulted for being uncooperative, but you rarely have to do the work, and never the whole thing nor a particularly undesirable portion. And it leaves the burden of control to the other person, instead of allowing it to be transferred to you.

    Alternatively, you can ask them to trade tasks. That one usually seems to result in them leaving you alone, though usually slightly miffed. xD

    Ooh, or you can direct them to someone else who is "better at ______"...

    2. I am having issues understanding how to deal with what I would call....I dunno...Fe change management....for lack of a better word. I have ran into this at two companies so far. A process will be built, typically Ti heavy. To use the process, certain deliverables or responsibilities are assigned at the start to be delivered at various phases through the process. However the process then will get tweaked and changed with no formal announcement-thus I show up ready to play my part and look as though I have fallen down on my responsibilities as I am not meeting the new-and-improved process. To me this changing of responsibilities without clarification is incredibly disrespectful and rude to do to another person and provokes feelings of offense as it makes me look as though I failed to carry through on my (value loaded) tasks.
    It seems that this has little to do with Fe and much to do with poor communication. Is there someone at the head of the process that should be aware of all changes? Or is there some communal way changes could be communicated, like a Google Doc, physical list, or email thread?

    I can totally see how that would happen in a Ti heavy process, though. Ti users would probably be quick to spot the inconsistencies, note the changes, and understand what needs to be tweaked to meet them. Harder for us external-system people to even recognize, much less constantly account for. Kind of a band-aid solution, but do you have any INTP friends you could touch base with periodically?

  7. #27
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Hmm... If it was a work situation, and I needed to get someone to do something, or work with me on something, I would probably be quite direct. But excessively polite and thankful. "Er, Nancy, can I ask you to do x for me? Sorry about this, but I really need you to get it done for me by the end of the week. I really hope it's not a problem, but I definitely need it then. Sorry!"

    It actually seems to work quite well, so there you go.

    I think I have a harder time being direct in interpersonal relationships, with friends etc. I'm afraid that's where I'm more likely to want people to pick up hints or read my mind, though I think I am getting better at expressing my needs there, too.
    this apologies give it away, as in this example
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The beat goes on ... This morning I woke up wondering if the lead secretary had planned an after trial party, so I emailed her (she works the early shift) and asked. She said my ISTJ did mention to her that they typically go out on the night after trial, but she hadn't heard any more about it. I said yeah, that's because she's waiting to hear back from you. That was her way of telling you to plan a party. Lead secretary was like, um, really?? and now she has to find a private room for dinner for 25 on one day's notice.

    It occurs to me this is why I was into d/s for awhile. A unequivocal order is so refreshing sometimes.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The beat goes on ... This morning I woke up wondering if the lead secretary had planned an after trial party, so I emailed her (she works the early shift) and asked. She said my ISTJ did mention to her that they typically go out on the night after trial, but she hadn't heard any more about it. I said yeah, that's because she's waiting to hear back from you. That was her way of telling you to plan a party. Lead secretary was like, um, really?? and now she has to find a private room for dinner for 25 on one day's notice.

    It occurs to me this is why I was into d/s for awhile. A unequivocal order is so refreshing sometimes.
    Geez. My sympathies for this poor lady.

    Yet another victim of terrible unclear communication.. we need to raise awareness on this issue.

    Fight the power!

  10. #30
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It seems that this has little to do with Fe and much to do with poor communication. Is there someone at the head of the process that should be aware of all changes? Or is there some communal way changes could be communicated, like a Google Doc, physical list, or email thread?

    I can totally see how that would happen in a Ti heavy process, though. Ti users would probably be quick to spot the inconsistencies, note the changes, and understand what needs to be tweaked to meet them. Harder for us external-system people to even recognize, much less constantly account for. Kind of a band-aid solution, but do you have any INTP friends you could touch base with periodically?
    I kept bugging my entp best friend and she said this is a a sign of a younger entp Ti that doesnt realize it forgot to share the details of the process.

    In the entp's mind he has built a very good system-but he just assumes other people can see all of the details and then think through his system to reach the "obvious" answers. Then as he refines, he changes it, forgetting to mention it to the rest of us using the system.

    i think I slapped an "Fe change management" label on it as I had seen an ISFJ do it in the past...what I note is that the process can change due to how others FEEL about it-aka Fe-especially if an authority-as I suppose objective reality is brokered that way, rather than with Te, so it appears to be flippant changes at times. *shrugs*

    I actually totally snapped on the poor ENTP. Not an enfp bitchslap actually (oddly, I rarely do those, ha!) but rather this alternate state I get to when very stressed.

    He sat down and started telling me the next things that we needed to change and I just stopped and stared at him and then very, very coldly and very, very quietly began explaining how he had asked us to change things over and over again and when he gave me things in writing I would change them again. He tried to say "well we should get in a room with your boss and my boss and clarify" I said "this isnt about you or me or our bosses-this is about you giving different direction every week n the process. EVERYONE is confused. We all want to do the right thing. We all want to follow the process you built. When you keep asking me to change what I have done, on short notice, I feel like you are questioning the work I have contributed and it offends me. We all want to do what you ask, but you have to explicitly tell us what that is and then let us know when you change it"

    I expected he would get defensive or angry, instead it was like magic. He immediately apologized and then went and wrote everything down in detail and everytime we talk he admits the error he was making. wtf? Much smoother though

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