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  1. #21
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    No that's Fi. Thinking everything is about you, or is a personal insult is Fi. Her rage sounds like explosions of inferior Te. Try again.
    No offense, Marm, but that seems a tad simplistic. Fe-doms, for instance, have a characteristic way of making everything about themselves and how they're good people and how dare you hurt their feelings like that after all they've done and so forth when they're unhealthy.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    No offense, Marm, but that seems a tad simplistic. Fe-doms, for instance, have a characteristic way of making everything about themselves and how they're good people and how dare you hurt their feelings like that after all they've done and so forth when they're unhealthy.
    Others seem to agree with me that it's Fi.

    What I think is simplistic is everyone believing that every bitch they don't like or beloved woman they have any kind of trouble with is an FJ.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Others seem to agree with me that it's Fi.

    What I think is simplistic is everyone believing that every bitch they don't like or beloved woman they have any kind of trouble with is an FJ.
    OK, I agree there's a lot of stereotyping going around. But I hardly think egocentrism is the sole domain of Fi users...

    F types in general seem to prone to suffer the infamous Nice Guy(tm) Syndrome, for example...
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    OK, I agree there's a lot of stereotyping going around. But I hardly think egocentrism is the sole domain of Fi users...

    F types in general seem to prone to suffer the infamous Nice Guy(tm) Syndrome, for example...
    He said she has no regard for social norms or for common decency, she believes it doesn't apply to her, and thinks EVERYTHING is a personal attack, even when it's not. That is Fi.

    Fe may play the martyr, say they're a nice person, how dare you do this to me. I just had an incident with an INFJ who acts like this on this forum, yet despite her firm belief in her innocence, has managed to make multiple enemies on this forum...without even acting like me. Simply by being passive-aggressive and acting holier than thou.

    I never said Fe types don't ever believe they are nicer, or better. That's not even what I said.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    He said she has no regard for social norms or for common decency, she believes it doesn't apply to her, and thinks EVERYTHING is a personal attack, even when it's not. That is Fi.

    Fe may play the martyr, say they're a nice person, how dare you do this to me. I just had an incident with an INFJ who acts like this on this forum, yet despite her firm belief in her innocence, has managed to make multiple enemies on this forum...without even acting like me. Simply by being passive-aggressive and acting holier than thou.

    I never said Fe types don't ever believe they are nicer, or better. That's not even what I said.
    OK, then. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Although I do think Fe can be weak in Ni-Ti INFJs. Doesn't seem to be the case described, but might be worth noting.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    OK, then. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Although I do think Fe can be weak in Ni-Ti INFJs. Doesn't seem to be the case described, but might be worth noting.
    I know, but you have not even determined if you have Fi or Fe. I had this problem in the beginning, too. But when I finally GOT Fi/Fe it was like "a ha!" There is no freakin' way I could be Fe. I am so Fi, I read the Jung description of the Fi type and was like "yes, this is in fact me."

    Have you even read this?

    The Introverted Feeling Type

    It is principally among women that I have found the priority of introverted feeling. The proverb 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. Since they submit the control of their lives to their subjectively orientated feeling, their true motives generally remain concealed. Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others. One distinctly feels the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, such an event only occurs when the object has in some way too strong an effect. The harmonious feeling atmosphere rules only so long as the object moves upon its own way with a moderate feeling intensity, and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to accompany the real emotions of the object, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative feeling-judgment. Although one may find a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious companionship, the unfamiliar object is shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but is met by a manner of apparent indifference or repelling coldness. [p. 493]

    One may even be made to feel the superfluousness of one's own existence. In the presence of something that might carry one away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent neutrality, tempered with an occasional trace of superiority and criticism that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive object. But a stormy emotion will be brusquely rejected with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the subject from the side of the unconscious, i.e. unless, through the animation of some primordial image, feeling is, as it were, taken captive. In which event such a woman simply feels a momentary laming, invariably producing, in due course, a still more violent resistance, which reaches the object in his most vulnerable spot. The relation to the object is, as far as possible, kept in a secure and tranquil middle state of feeling, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely proscribed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly and, when once aware of it at all, the object has a permanent sense of his undervaluation. Such, however, is not always the case, since very often the deficit remains unconscious; whereupon the unconscious feeling-claims gradually produce symptoms which compel a more serious attention.

    A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth. Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor [p. 494] the subject can find a right relation. To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

    Such misunderstanding is a characteristic occurrence in the life of this type, and is commonly registered as a most weighty argument against any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type. It may possibly express its aim and content in a concealed religiosity anxiously shielded, from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms equally safeguarded from surprise; not without a secret ambition to bring about some superiority over the object by such means. Women often express much of it in their children, letting their passionateness flow secretly into them.

    Although in the normal type, the tendency, above alluded to, to overpower or coerce the object once openly and visibly with the thing secretly felt, rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt in this direction, some trace of it, none the less, leaks through into the personal effect upon the object, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds the immediate circle under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious. This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images; consciousness, however, readily refers it to the ego, whereupon the influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and [p. 495] petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But this change in the picture leads also to neurosis.

    So long as the ego feels itself housed, as it were, beneath the heights of the unconscious subject, and feeling reveals something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. The unconscious thinking is certainly archaic, yet its reductions may prove extremely helpful in compensating the occasional inclinations to exalt the ego into the subject. But, whenever this does take place by dint of complete suppression of the unconscious reductive thinking-products, the unconscious thinking goes over into opposition and becomes projected into objects. Whereupon the now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the depreciated object. Consciousness begins to feel 'what others think'. Naturally, others are thinking, all sorts of baseness, scheming evil, and contriving all sorts of plots, secret intrigues, etc. To prevent this, the subject must also begin to carry out preventive intrigues, to suspect and sound others, to make subtle combinations. Assailed by rumours, he must make convulsive efforts to convert, if possible, a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Innumerable secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles not only will no base or evil means be disdained, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must lead to exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical; in the case of women we often find severe collateral physical states, as for instance anæmia and its sequelæ.
    The Extraverted Feeling-Type

    In so far as feeling is, incontestably, a more obvious peculiarity of feminine psychology than thinking, the most pronounced feeling-types are also to be found among women. When extraverted feeling possesses the priority we speak of an extraverted feeling-type. Examples of this type that I can call to mind are, almost without exception, women. She is a woman who follows the guiding-line of her feeling. As the result of education her feeling has become developed into an adjusted function, subject to conscious control. Except in extreme cases, feeling has a personal character, in spite of the fact that the subjective factor may be already, to a large extent, repressed. The personality appears to be adjusted in relation to objective conditions. Her feelings correspond with objective situations and general values. Nowhere is this more clearly revealed than in the so-called 'love-choice'; the 'suitable' man is loved, not another one; he is suitable not so much because he fully accords with the fundamental character of the woman -- as a rule she is quite uninformed about this -- but because [p. 449] he meticulously corresponds in standing, age, capacity, height, and family respectability with every reasonable requirement. Such a formulation might, of course, be easily rejected as ironical or depreciatory, were I not fully convinced that the love-feeling of this type of woman completely corresponds with her choice. It is genuine, and not merely intelligently manufactured. Such 'reasonable' marriages exist without number, and they are by no means the worst. Such women are good comrades to their husbands and excellent mothers, so long as husbands or children possess the conventional psychic constitution. One can feel 'correctly', however, only when feeling is disturbed by nothing else. But nothing disturbs feeling so much as thinking. It is at once intelligible, therefore, that this type should repress thinking as much as possible. This does not mean to say that such a woman does not think at all; on the contrary, she may even think a great deal and very ably, but her thinking is never sui generis; it is, in fact, an Epimethean appendage to her feeling. What she cannot feel, she cannot consciously think. 'But I can't think what I don't feel', such a type said to me once in indignant tones. As far as feeling permits, she can think very well, but every conclusion, however logical, that might lead to a disturbance of feeling is rejected from the outset. It is simply not thought. And thus everything that corresponds with objective valuations is good: these things are loved or treasured; the rest seems merely to exist in a world apart.

    But a change comes over the picture when the importance of the object reaches a still higher level. As already explained above, such an assimilation of subject to object then occurs as almost completely to engulf the subject of feeling. Feeling loses its personal character -- it becomes feeling per se; it almost seems as though the [p. 450] personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. Now, since in actual life situations constantly and successively alternate, in which the feeling-tones released are not only different but are actually mutually contrasting, the personality inevitably becomes dissipated in just so many different feelings. Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next -- apparently, I repeat, for in reality such a manifold personality is altogether impossible. The basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the feeling-subject as an alteration of his ego, a mood, in other words. Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident, i.e. the original compensatory attitude of the unconscious becomes a manifest opposition. This reveals itself, in the first instance, in extravagant demonstrations of feeling, in loud and obtrusive feeling predicates, which leave one, however, somewhat incredulous. They ring hollow; they are not convincing. On the contrary, they at once give one an inkling of a resistance that is being overcompensated, and one begins to wonder whether such a feeling-judgment might not just as well be entirely different. In fact, in a very short time it actually is different. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to provoke forthwith an entirely contrary estimation of the selfsame object. The result of such an experience is that the observer is unable to take either judgment at all seriously. He begins to reserve his own opinion. But since, with this type, it is a matter of the greatest moment to establish an intensive feeling rapport with his environment, redoubled efforts are now required [p. 451] to overcome this reserve. Thus, in the manner of the circulus vitiosus, the situation goes from bad to worse. The more the feeling relation with the object becomes overstressed, the nearer the unconscious opposition approaches the surface.

    We have already seen that the extraverted feeling type, as a rule, represses his thinking, just because thinking is the function most liable to disturb feeling. Similarly, when thinking seeks to arrive at pure results of any kind, its first act is to exclude feeling, since nothing is calculated to harass and falsify thinking so much as feeling-values. Thinking, therefore, in so far as it is an independent function, is repressed in the extraverted feeling type. Its repression, as I observed before, is complete only in so far as its inexorable logic forces it to conclusions that are incompatible with feeling. It is suffered to exist as the servant of feeling, or more accurately its slave. Its backbone is broken; it may not operate on its own account, in accordance with its own laws, Now, since a logic exists producing inexorably right conclusions, this must happen somewhere, although beyond the bounds of consciousness, i.e. in the unconscious. Pre-eminently, therefore, the unconscious content of this type is a particular kind of thinking. It is an infantile, archaic, and negative thinking.

    So long as conscious feeling preserves the personal character, or, in other words, so long as the personality does not become swallowed up by successive states of feeling, this unconscious thinking remains compensatory. But as soon as the personality is dissociated, becoming dispersed in mutually contradictory states of feeling, the identity of the ego is lost, and the subject becomes unconscious. But, because of the subject's lapse into the unconscious, it becomes associated with the unconscious thinking -- function, therewith assisting the unconscious [p. 452] thought to occasional consciousness. The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more 'depersonalized,' it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the 'nothing but' style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

    Unconscious thought reaches the surface in the form of irruptions, often of an obsessing nature, the general character of which is always negative and depreciatory. Women of this type have moments when the most hideous thoughts fasten upon the very objects most valued by their feelings. This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make 'a nothing but' interpretation of the feeling. At this point, it is perhaps in the nature of a side-remark to observe that the collective unconscious, i.e. the totality of the primordial images, also becomes enlisted in the same manner, and from the elaboration and development of these images there dawns the possibility of a regeneration of the attitude upon another basis.

    Hysteria, with the characteristic infantile sexuality of its unconscious world of ideas, is the principal form of neurosis with this type.
    You can't just go by the bits and pieces on this forum, it's best to read Jung.

  7. #27
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    In fact, I'll take out this particular snippet of the Introverted Feeling type, since the description is so long, and focuses initially on the fact that we can seem childish or cold or indifferent...and here is what happens when Fi is unhealthy, under stress, etc.:

    But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and [p. 495] petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But this change in the picture leads also to neurosis.

  8. #28
    Member Grizzly On The Loose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    He said she has no regard for social norms or for common decency, she believes it doesn't apply to her, and thinks EVERYTHING is a personal attack, even when it's not. That is Fi.
    Maybe I ought to have been a bit clearer there - she is normally decent and polite, if sometimes with an obvious facade of fakeness or passive-aggressiveness, but will tend to break some rules of common decency if she feels that she is justifed, then get cross when people call her out on it (amusingly, she is very judgmental towards others' behavior and demands much warmth in personal relationships).

    Here's an example of one such situation - she tends to make very loud, resonant promises which she later casually ignores for selfish reasons. If you get (rightfully) pissed, you are evil, selfish and cruel.

    Still seems more Fi, I guess.
    ENTJ 5w6 so/sp SLE

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly On The Loose View Post
    Maybe I ought to have been a bit clearer there - she is normally decent and polite, if sometimes with an obvious facade of fakeness or passive-aggressiveness, but will tend to break some rules of common decency if she feels that she is justifed, then get cross when people call her out on it (amusingly, she is very judgmental towards others' behavior and demands much warmth in personal relationships).

    Here's an example of one such situation - she tends to make very loud, resonant promises which she later casually ignores for selfish reasons. If you get (rightfully) pissed, you are evil, selfish and cruel.

    Still seems more Fi, I guess.
    Yes, Fi types aren't sociopaths or anything. We're actually very passionate, sensitive people with intensity of feeling. And whatever we believe in with conviction, it is who we are, it's not because it's a rule of decency, see? Harmony will be broken for the sake of those convictions. Fi will question why everyone else thinks we should act this way - and may agree, as I mentioned earlier, if they can rationalize a reason within their personal morality that justifies that proper behavior. But if our personal morality can't find an ethical reason to justify why everyone else says it's the right way to behave or whatever, we'll just ignore it, and may even defy it.

    Can she seem very very internal and in her own world when she's not lashing out and upset like this? Because people IRL tend to think that of me, that I am the sweetest person, I mind my own business, need space, and am not afraid to say I need my space...but when they see me passionate or angry they're like "OMFG." It's almost like a 180 when my Te comes out, I'll cut you.

    My ESFJ ex, who is a pretty tough guy, used to say that he couldn't fathom being able to *verbally* dice me up the way I could do to him, which I think is my NTJ shadow, my Ni/Te coldly dissecting and bulldozing someone who has crossed my Fi.

  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    one does really need to be careful when the Fe likes to fu.

    thats all i have on my mind :/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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