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[INFJ] Help me understand my INFJ boss.

Santosha

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My boss says she is an INFJ.

She knows this because her mother is a psychologist (PHD) and did all the tests on her growing up. Yet she seems to be incapable of theorizing to even moderate degrees. Every time her and I meet to discuss things about work she comments on how I love theoretical examples but she must have hard data. I often have to drag out a notepad and illustrate, what seems to me very basic concepts, by diagram. Timelines and various factors that are changing the process through this and that, how policies are ineffective at this point but would later be effective at this point, how certain reports she is pulling to demonstrate production are not true numbers because they don't take x or y into account, etc. I just don't get it. And to be clear, I work with another intuitive who I can easily convey my thoughts with only a few brief words. Neither of us have worked in this position as long as my boss, so i know its not matter of being unfamiliar with the material.

She finds psychology boring. Initially, I had chalked this up to the possibility that mom inundated her with her with it.. but she recently told me that when she went to stay at her moms house for 2 weeks she almost died of boredom because the only thing she had to entertain herself was shelves lined with dense books. She prefers to be physically engaged, outdoors, gambling or partying. She does read, but it's typically things like Hunger Games, Harry Potter and self-help books for interpersonal relations and managerial style.

She is definitely Fe. We were talking about her 20 yr old daughter and my 19 yo brother.. both of them going through that 'I'm going to exert my independence by making ridiculously stupid life choices that you can't do shit about' phase, and she revealed a whole plethora of emotionally manipulative tactics she is executing via Facebook, her daughters friends and even professors. I was both fascinated and horrified by her desire to meddle in other peoples affairs with such entitlement and determination. She has also cut her daughters college funding off because she doesn't approve of the guy her daughter is dating! All I could contribute was that my brother irritates me as well, but I figure he will hang himself a few times and learn as i did. (I would never, EVER deter my brother from going to college).

She does seem to be introverted, but it's through no social deficiency. She doesn't answer phone calls and becomes very flustered by people dropping in unexpectedly. She processes before response always, even common knowledge.

She is very different than any other confirmed INFJ's I know irl. I realize this doesn't rule it out, but I want to get others input. It's really the difficulty with theory that I find so off-beat. Is this typical for INFJ's? For a while a considered that she was just reserving direction or decision on intangible concepts because she puts so much weight on these things as a manager.. but after enough observation I am certain she just doesn't follow.

What do you think?
 

Randomnity

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Sounds like it might be a Ne vs. Ni clash? Maybe it's not so much that it's "theory" but that it's "Ne theory"? Is your other intuitive coworker Ne?

It also might be that she is just not that bright, or not that good at whatever it is that you do. Unfortunately N is no real predictor of competence, or people would just be screened for N/S in the interview.

She doesn't sound that atypical for an INFJ with higher than "usual" Se, although it's entirely possible that she could be ISTP (same functions, different order) or ISFJ (sharing Fe).
 

Z Buck McFate

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she revealed a whole plethora of emotionally manipulative tactics she is executing via Facebook, her daughters friends and even professors. I was both fascinated and horrified by her desire to meddle in other peoples affairs with such entitlement and determination. She has also cut her daughters college funding off because she doesn't approve of the guy her daughter is dating!

While there's quite a bit of stuff up there that I don't relate to at all (not interested in psychology, prefers to be physically engaged with environment), I wouldn't consider it particularly antithetical to INFJness per se. The bolded, above, though- one thing I think is rather common to INFJ is being somewhat keen to directing the behavior of others according to the other's rules (or if they don't understand that 'other' well enough, at least the 'direction' is somewhat customized to the best of the INFJ's ability) and even finding people who try to do it according to generic paradigms largely oafish and counterproductive (not to mention, offensive). Unless there's something specific about the daughter which makes that seem like a good idea, it does seem like too much of a 'one size fits all' approach for an INFJ to take. Then again, people really do kinda turn into their parents a little bit, and maybe this boss has a heavy Te/Si influence in one of her parents.

So.....:shrug: I agree that what you've listed does not sound like stereotypical INFJ behavior to me. Maybe, like Randomnity says, she's just not very bright. Dunno. The only thing that comes across in your description is that she does sound J'ish (very directive, however oafishly).
 

Aquarelle

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My boss says she is an INFJ.

She knows this because her mother is a psychologist (PHD) and did all the tests on her growing up. Yet she seems to be incapable of theorizing to even moderate degrees. Every time her and I meet to discuss things about work she comments on how I love theoretical examples but she must have hard data. I often have to drag out a notepad and illustrate, what seems to me very basic concepts, by diagram. Timelines and various factors that are changing the process through this and that, how policies are ineffective at this point but would later be effective at this point, how certain reports she is pulling to demonstrate production are not true numbers because they don't take x or y into account, etc. I just don't get it. And to be clear, I work with another intuitive who I can easily convey my thoughts with only a few brief words. Neither of us have worked in this position as long as my boss, so i know its not matter of being unfamiliar with the material.

This doesn't surprise me. I am a big-picture thinker, but I need hard data/facts/examples, too. Maybe she leans toward the T side? I'm only a slight NF, and I find myself exhibiting a lot stereotypically of ST traits sometimes. Also, we did the MBTI Step II test at work, and I tested as a "reasonable, questioning" INFJ. The traits in quotes are called "outliers," in that they are not typically associated with this personality type, but that they are important parts of my personality. It could just be the case that she has some "outliers."

She is definitely Fe. We were talking about her 20 yr old daughter and my 19 yo brother.. both of them going through that 'I'm going to exert my independence by making ridiculously stupid life choices that you can't do shit about' phase, and she revealed a whole plethora of emotionally manipulative tactics she is executing via Facebook, her daughters friends and even professors. I was both fascinated and horrified by her desire to meddle in other peoples affairs with such entitlement and determination. She has also cut her daughters college funding off because she doesn't approve of the guy her daughter is dating! All I could contribute was that my brother irritates me as well, but I figure he will hang himself a few times and learn as i did. (I would never, EVER deter my brother from going to college).
Unhealthy INFJs can be manipulative. :shrug:

She does seem to be introverted, but it's through no social deficiency. She doesn't answer phone calls and becomes very flustered by people dropping in unexpectedly. She processes before response always, even common knowledge.
Introversion isn't usually through a social "deficiency".... ? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I don't answer phone calls either-- I turned off my ringer on my phone at work, and I let everything go to voicemail so that I can process/think before responding. Whenever possible, I use email or chat over the phone. I also hate being dropped in on. It interrupts my flow/concentration. I don't get flustered or freak out (unless it's a really busy/stressful time) but it is not my preference.

I think she could be INFJ. Maybe a bit "unhealthy," exhibiting some shadow traits. Plus, our "work personality" can be quite different from our "true" self, as the work world often requires us to do things or behave ways that don't come naturally. Or, if her mother gave her the test when she was quite a bit younger, she may have changed.
 

Thalassa

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Honestly some of the stuff you said made me think ISFP or ISFJ. ISFP because she has a 20 year old daughter but was dying of boredom because she can't party or gamble? ISFPs also mistake themselves for INFJs because of tertiary Ni.

However, her intent in XTREME MEDDLING and cutting a daughter of financially because of hating her boyfriend does sound more like Fe to me.

It would also make sense that an ISFJ would frustrate you because she's an Si dom with inferior Ne, and you're an Ne dom with inferior Si.

So I'm going ISFJ.
 

Thalassa

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P.S. I think her psychology Ph.D. mother probably WANTED her daughter to be INFJ and "special" or some garbage like that, so yeah I wouldn't hang too much on that either.
 

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My gut reaction is ISFJ or ESFJ, but I am really not too good at typing others, whether IRL or from others' descriptions.

Marm might have a point. It does seem sometimes like everyone thinks they are INFJ, which occasionally makes me question whether that's really what I am. :laugh: One of the things that reassures me that I probably am is that I tested that way, and self-identified with descriptions, well before I realised how SPESHUL it was supposed to be to be INFJ - so I had nothing invested in it.

A bit off topic, but along those lines I'm just thinking of the occasional times someone on my Facebook friends list has posted about their MBTI type. A guy I know posted about being ENFJ, which I think suits him very well, but later he seemed to be reconsidering and thinking INFJ, which I think is...possible, but quite a bit less likely than ENFJ. But when he posted about being INFJ, several mutual acquaintances were like "oh yeah! I'm an INFJ too!" And really, with a couple of them I was like...huh? I could have seen ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ, maybe ENFP for them, but never in a million years INFJ. So it just made me wonder if it was a bit of a SPESHUL thing, again.

But then, what do I really know? These were not people I really knew, and they were part of a social group where everyone seemed to want to act as ESFP as possible...so maybe they were INFJs with a desperate desire to fit in...but I'm not quite sure how that works...
 

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P.S. I think her psychology Ph.D. mother probably WANTED her daughter to be INFJ and "special" or some garbage like that, so yeah I wouldn't hang too much on that either.

I totally agree... doesn't sound Ni dom whatsoever. ISFJ. Honestly anyone who thinks that it's right to cut off funding for college, which indirectly fucks with their future, because of a guy, is a pretty terrible person. None of the mom's business at all what her daughter's love life is like... and making decisions based on that? No.
 

Snow Turtle

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P.S. I think her psychology Ph.D. mother probably WANTED her daughter to be INFJ and "special" or some garbage like that, so yeah I wouldn't hang too much on that either.

She knows this because her mother is a psychologist (PHD) and did all the tests on her growing up.

I wouldn't put too much stock on people's evaluation of their MBTI type and all that, since frankly most people studying psychology don't really put that much stock into the theory.

Not to mention, it's always based on the most basic idea of MBTI. The sort of thing you see when a new person is discovering their type on this website, only to have it change like 3-4 times over the year as they learn more about the system and get rid of stereotypes.

A bit off topic, but along those lines I'm just thinking of the occasional times someone on my Facebook friends list has posted about their MBTI type. A guy I know posted about being ENFJ, which I think suits him very well, but later he seemed to be reconsidering and thinking INFJ, which I think is...possible, but quite a bit less likely than ENFJ. But when he posted about being INFJ, several mutual acquaintances were like "oh yeah! I'm an INFJ too!" And really, with a couple of them I was like...huh? I could have seen ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ, maybe ENFP for them, but never in a million years INFJ. So it just made me wonder if it was a bit of a SPESHUL thing, again.

It's probably just a testing problem. The N questions tend to sound better than the S questions at times "Big picture... and so fourth"
Then there's the addition problem where most of these people probably haven't even really bothered to read the actual profiles of these types. They probably just did an online personality quiz, got the result and left it at that rather than most of us here who actually decided to look further into everything. :/

Kinda sucks. I gave up trying to get my friends into MBTI even though I believe it's such a fantastic tool for personal development.

PS. I find it really weird that an ISFJ would be bored by psychology... I just can't comprehend it. I can understand if they feel that there's more important things to do besides psychology, but we're talking about understanding other people, Fe. Unless her mum has painted her this picture that psychology is purely neuroscience or something like that. In fact I should find out now.

Her type? said:
I don't know... A lot of the stuff listed up with regards to work sound a lot more like Te response but it might just be work related reason.
Also, I don't particularly see why the whole manipulation aspect is definitely considered as Fe since many types are capable of doing what she has just done.

In fact, it's going to surround ridiculous here, but there's always the possibility that she's actually Te-dominant. You should ask her what her functions are like (as a way to get her to profile her MBTI type again - haha does this count as Fe manipulation?) if she's hell bent on her type being INFJ (It sounds like she is)... I wouldn't throw ESTJ out of the question. Eitherway, she's sounds like a controller type of person. Not healthy.
 

Thalassa

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My gut reaction is ISFJ or ESFJ, but I am really not too good at typing others, whether IRL or from others' descriptions.

Marm might have a point. It does seem sometimes like everyone thinks they are INFJ, which occasionally makes me question whether that's really what I am. :laugh: One of the things that reassures me that I probably am is that I tested that way, and self-identified with descriptions, well before I realised how SPESHUL it was supposed to be to be INFJ - so I had nothing invested in it.

A bit off topic, but along those lines I'm just thinking of the occasional times someone on my Facebook friends list has posted about their MBTI type. A guy I know posted about being ENFJ, which I think suits him very well, but later he seemed to be reconsidering and thinking INFJ, which I think is...possible, but quite a bit less likely than ENFJ. But when he posted about being INFJ, several mutual acquaintances were like "oh yeah! I'm an INFJ too!" And really, with a couple of them I was like...huh? I could have seen ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ, maybe ENFP for them, but never in a million years INFJ. So it just made me wonder if it was a bit of a SPESHUL thing, again.

But then, what do I really know? These were not people I really knew, and they were part of a social group where everyone seemed to want to act as ESFP as possible...so maybe they were INFJs with a desperate desire to fit in...but I'm not quite sure how that works...

Well I think the assessment of her being a "not very bright" INFJ is really not an issue here, the issue is she simply wants facts and data before theory. It makes perfect sense to me that an Ne dom an Si dom would conflict over that in a work setting, because the Si dom really would need the facts first, or want to piece together a more linear, cohesive timeline BEFORE accepting an Ne theory.

When I was like seventeen I tested as INFJ...because that's what I thought I SHOULD answer. I was raised by SJ grandparents who were constantly bemoaning my spontaneity, impulsiveness, and ability to simply walk away from something before it was "finished" in their mind. I remember being told as young as twelve years old "good lord you never finish ANYTHING" and in high school "you just don't like rules" (rejection of inferior Te, methinks). I also wanted to experience everything for myself instead of taking advice, which is probably due to Se.

But a lot of questions and myths about INFJ are leading, they actually can be connected to the way SFPs use Ni ...in a more "mystical" way, since Ni isn't a dom or aux function, Ni seems more ethereal and mysterious, especially to a young SFP. Jung even cites the Se dom as having "superstitious religiosity" full of "abstruse rites and rituals" ...and, uh, yeah...that sounds just like young me.

Anyway, I think I thought I *should* be J in an MBTI sense, because as an adult, one of my absolutely strongest letters is P. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's because I know myself better now and have examples of living my own life, instead of projecting what I was taught was correct or ideal.

However, I think this is an Si type because of her preference for facts, not just because of her taste in books (I mean there are sensor writers in the canon of great literature, she doesn't read only The Hunger Games because she's a sensor) ...and I would vote Fe over Fi because of her attitude toward morality and how it should be applied to others.
 

SilkRoad

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In response to [MENTION=306]Kai[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION], I agree, the N answers to test questions can sound "better", or it's what people think they "should" be. (When I started looking into enneagram, I was pretty sure I "should" be a 4 because of being INFJ, and I felt a bit weird when I realised that 6 was a lot more likely, because of all the "fear" and "anxiety" and just the general bad rep!)

People in general are not all that self-aware (actually, one of the best things about MBTI for me is that it has helped with my self-awareness, a lot) and so I think it is very very easy to answer test questions in terms of what you think you should be or what you want to be, rather than what you ARE. In fact, I think this can often throw people's results off quite majorly. For instance, maybe you are an INFP but you have close friends or family who are INTJ, and you really admire them and feel they have qualities you lack. Especially the way the questions are phrased in some tests, you could end up getting an INTJ result even if you definitely are not that type, because those are the qualities and the approaches that you feel you should aspire to.

Sorry Huxley, probably derailing a bit here. :)
 

SilkRoad

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PS. I find it really weird that an ISFJ would be bored by psychology... I just can't comprehend it. I can understand if they feel that there's more important things to do besides psychology, but we're talking about understanding other people, Fe. Unless her mum has painted her this picture that psychology is purely neuroscience or something like that.

Well, there is a bit of a lack of SJs on boards such as this. It could be partly because some people mistype. But I tended to think that SJs find psychology isn't necessarily real-world enough? Too theoretical, not practical enough? In some cases, anyway. But I agree, you'd think ISFJs would be interested in people issues.

Of course, there could also be plenty of SJs out there who are interested in psychology but just don't spend their time on TypeC and the like. ;)
 

Snow Turtle

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Well, there is a bit of a lack of SJs on boards such as this. It could be partly because some people mistype. But I tended to think that SJs find psychology isn't necessarily real-world enough? Too theoretical, not practical enough? In some cases, anyway. But I agree, you'd think ISFJs would be interested in people issues.

Of course, there could also be plenty of SJs out there who are interested in psychology but just don't spend their time on TypeC and the like. ;)

Guess it's one of those subjects where people think that they don't need it because they'll pick it up anyway in their life time.

Sigh, I wish I knew how it was really viewed by the general public about it being too theoretical/not practical enough. It's hard for me to say, since it's obvious to anybody on these sort of websites the massive amount of benefit psychology has in general on understanding other people. Even the boss in question acknowledges this, given that she reads self-help and manager style books. I'll have a look on PersonalityCafe.

Might dig around on PsychINFO as well. I'd be surprised if people haven't written journals about people's attitudes towards psychology as a subject. It seems like the most obvious dissertation/thesis topic.
 

Thalassa

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Well, there is a bit of a lack of SJs on boards such as this. It could be partly because some people mistype. But I tended to think that SJs find psychology isn't necessarily real-world enough? Too theoretical, not practical enough? In some cases, anyway. But I agree, you'd think ISFJs would be interested in people issues.

Of course, there could also be plenty of SJs out there who are interested in psychology but just don't spend their time on TypeC and the like. ;)

I think it's because there are a lot of mistyped people. I see more SJs and SPs on other personality boards, this one is pretty infested with people who believe they are Ns. Like...there are SOOO many ISFPs and ISFJs and ISTPs on Personality Cafe. Even on the Keirsey boards two of the most frequent posters are SJs, and another couple are SPs, with a smattering of NFs and NTs...it actually seems pretty strangely balanced on the Keirsey boards, because it's such a small group. Keirsey even goes by "persona" (so I go by Artisan Performer rather than Composer there, because I'm expressive in my "role".)

JTG1984 loves psychology and he's an ISTJ. He lists it as one of his main interests on facebook beside health/fitness and dogs.
 

Z Buck McFate

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P.S. I think her psychology Ph.D. mother probably WANTED her daughter to be INFJ and "special" or some garbage like that, so yeah I wouldn't hang too much on that either.

This occurred to me as well.

One of the things that reassures me that I probably am is that I tested that way, and self-identified with descriptions, well before I realised how SPESHUL it was supposed to be to be INFJ - so I had nothing invested in it.

Seriously. It wasn't until I stumbled into the fb INFJ groups a couple of years ago that I knew anything about this. ( :blink: ) I knew there was an N elitism, but had no idea there was an amplified version of it around INFJ.

[edit to add:]

Well I think the assessment of her being a "not very bright" INFJ is really not an issue here, the issue is she simply wants facts and data before theory. It makes perfect sense to me that an Ne dom an Si dom would conflict over that in a work setting, because the Si dom really would need the facts first, or want to piece together a more linear, cohesive timeline BEFORE accepting an Ne theory.

I can only speak for myself, but when I made the comment I was referring to the crudeness of her 'direction'. When I read the thing about withholding funds because she didn't like the boyfriend, my first thought was either Te'er (because it's just not where their focus goes) or 'not very bright' Fe'er. It had nothing to do with the first paragraph of the op. [Further edit:] And also the thing about getting manipulative with facebook (or whatever the op said)- that just smacks of "not very bright Fe'er" to me.
 

SilkRoad

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Seriously. It wasn't until I stumbled into the fb INFJ groups a couple of years ago that I knew anything about this. ( :blink: ) I knew there was an N elitism, but had no idea there was an amplified version of it around INFJ.

Ah yes. "I'm special, broken, psychic and precious, and I HATE all ESTJs, so I must be an INFJ!" :shock:

Well, those groups can be an entertaining read on the days when I feel messed up, and I need to remind myself that I'm not so bad after all... :D
 

wildflower

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as far as understanding your boss i'd go by who she is rather than mbti. if she needs facts and data to function best then i'd give her facts and data. :shrug: as far as her type maybe she is isfj as others have mentioned altho i'm not sure they are terribly into partying or gambling either. when you say that introversion is related to social deficiency you may be confusing introversion with shyness. they aren't the same thing altho they can appear that way at times.
 
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well, if we take Ni & Fe from the first and third paragraphs - we can know she has Se and Ti...

so that leaves us with:
Fe Ni Se Ti = ENFJ
Ni Fe Ti Se = INFJ
Se Ti Fe Ni = ESTP
Ti Se Ni Fe = ISTP

if we then take that she's both a Judger and an introvert... we are left with INFJ by a process of elimination...

first, we don't actually know if this is wholy a bad choice as it seems in the surface, because depending on circumstances she might not be telling her daughter "its my way or don't go to college", she might be telling her "if you want it your way you better use your own means and work your ass off throughout college". likewise, as far as we know her daughter might not actually be studying a profession but is doing something for fun - she could be majoring in the influences of balkan poetry over cultural trends in the romantic era for all we know, which is not something i'd be against as a parent but is definetly something i would consider a luxery.
second, as parents you always meddles into what they do or dont give their children, it starts when the child looses toy privllages for hitting someone in school, doesn't get candy if he doesn't eat his vagtables, and yes, as the children grow up so can the problems and so can the meddling. if my son would grow to date a cocaine whore taking him to partying with a gang that happens to be an actual gang, i think i can safelty trust that my INFJ exwife would think twice before giving him the car for the weekend.
third, let's stop with the true-scotsman fallacy, INFJs are entirely capable - just like ENTPs and any other type, person or animal on this planet - of making bad choices, even on the holy sensitive subject of parenting.
 

SilkRoad

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well, if we take Ni & Fe from the first and third paragraphs - we can know she has Se and Ti...

so that leaves us with:
Fe Ni Se Ti = ENFJ
Ni Fe Ti Se = INFJ
Se Ti Fe Ni = ESTP
Ti Se Ni Fe = ISTP

if we then take that she's both a Judger and an introvert... we are left with INFJ by a process of elimination...

first, we don't actually know if this is wholy a bad choice as it seems in the surface, because depending on circumstances she might not be telling her daughter "its my way or don't go to college", she might be telling her "if you want it your way you better use your own means and work your ass off throughout college". likewise, as far as we know her daughter might not actually be studying a profession but is doing something for fun - she could be majoring in the influences of balkan poetry over cultural trends in the romantic era for all we know, which is not something i'd be against as a parent but is definetly something i would consider a luxery.
second, as parents you always meddles into what they do or dont give their children, it starts when the child looses toy privllages for hitting someone in school, doesn't get candy if he doesn't eat his vagtables, and yes, as the children grow up so can the problems and so can the meddling. if my son would grow to date a cocaine whore taking him to partying with a gang that happens to be an actual gang, i think i can safelty trust that my INFJ exwife would think twice before giving him the car for the weekend.
third, let's stop with the true-scotsman fallacy, INFJs are entirely capable - just like ENTPs and any other type, person or animal on this planet - of making bad choices, even on the holy sensitive subject of parenting.

Two questions:

a) Who said INFJs are incapable of making bad choices? Please provide an example of where this has been said in this thread.

b) How did you get Ni from the first paragraph?
 
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