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  1. #21
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I believe that everyone is born with faith, one irrational idea. And this is it, just the belief that you have to try to keep living.

    Why would everyone be born with faith? How are your defining the word faith? To me it means belief in a supreme being. Which I don't necessarily believe everyone is born with. I think they are born perhaps with a sense of the divine or a inclination towards it but not a confirmed faith in it.

  2. #22
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Why would everyone be born with faith? How are your defining the word faith? To me it means belief in a supreme being. Which I don't necessarily believe everyone is born with. I think they are born perhaps with a sense of the divine or a inclination towards it but not a confirmed faith in it.
    Having faith is usually used meaning that you believe in God, but it's often used to mean that you believe in some sort of non-deist idea, like everything will work out, or that you have a place in the universe, or that everything has meaning.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Having faith is usually used meaning that you believe in God, but it's often used to mean that you believe in some sort of non-deist idea, like everything will work out, or that you have a place in the universe, or that everything has meaning.

    So you believe that most people are born with those ideas? I disagree.

  4. #24
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    So you believe that most people are born with those ideas? I disagree.
    Nope, I said I believe people are born with the irrational impulse to live, and end up rationalizing it into an idea. (at least most of us are)

  5. #25
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Nope, I said I believe people are born with the irrational impulse to live, and end up rationalizing it into an idea. (at least most of us are)
    Weird... I wouldn't have thought an impulse to live/survive was 'irrational', seeing as all other lifeforms have the same drive to live, survive, propagate, etc. Do you think it is 'irrational' only because we're aware of this desire? Does lack of awareness for many of the other lifeforms mean rationality/irrationality then doesn't apply?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #26
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Weird... I wouldn't have thought an impulse to live/survive was 'irrational', seeing as all other lifeforms have the same drive to live, survive, propagate, etc. Do you think it is 'irrational' only because we're aware of this desire? Does lack of awareness for many of the other lifeforms mean rationality/irrationality then doesn't apply?
    It's rational to know that another creature is essentially 'programmed' to survive, so in that case it's something that can be reasoned.. cause and effect. But it cannot be reasoned that it is better to live than not to, the value judgment that only comes into play when we're self aware and have the ability (or illusion) of freewill. So, I don't think really a lizard has need for belief, because it (probably) isn't removed from itself the way we are from ourselves.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Nope, I said I believe people are born with the irrational impulse to live, and end up rationalizing it into an idea. (at least most of us are)
    It's not really irrational to want to live since most forms of death are unpleasant/painful. Plus there is the gamble that death, being unknown, could be much less pleasant than life. You don't need to be hopeful about life to be afraid of dying or to want to avoid pain.


    I'm not seeing the connection to belief.

  8. #28
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    It's not really irrational to want to live since most forms of death are unpleasant/painful. Plus there is the gamble that death, being unknown, could be much less pleasant than life. You don't need to be hopeful about life to be afraid of dying or to want to avoid pain.


    I'm not seeing the connection to belief.
    That's a very interesting statement, it's like a transposition of Pascal's wager, an attempt to rationally explain why it's best to believe in God. In other words, this is a rational attempt to explain why it's best to believe living is good, with the same success as Pascal's argument. As far as the pain argument, I don't think that has anything to do with why people think life is better than death, and I don't think you think so either. This can be explored by doing a thought experiment where everyone has the ability to die painlessly by will. I'm not going to flesh that one out, I don't have a lot of time this second.

    The connection to belief, is that belief is a bridge over things that can't be rationalized. Sometimes it's things that are false, sometimes it's things that have to be taken at face value because it can't be reasoned to, it's an axiom of life: I am alive and I wish to continue living, I believe living is good. There is no reason to that.

    Death cannot be worse or better than being living, because there will be nobody for it to be better or worse for. The only way to judge better or worse is to be alive. The statements are nonsense, we need to short circuit them to do what we were going to do anyway, rational or not, eat sleep and play and all those other things we do.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Look Qlip, stop being wrong.

    *hasnt read thread*

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Look Qlip, stop being wrong.

    *hasnt read thread*

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