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  1. #281
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    I do not wish to spoil your enjoyment of this thread by making irrelevant and negative remarks, though I did make an observation that is both amusing and descriptive of how people have approached this topic. My remark has more to do with the method that people have used rather than the conclusions they arrived at.

    The method is this: My friend, family member or an SO is an INFJ and he has this quality that I don't like. Therefore I will assume that this is how INFJs are, and on the basis of this I can say why somebody should hate an INFJ.

    Some of you will say that you know more than one INFJ and spent a lot of time observing them. Exactly how many did you observe? Ten? Twenty? One-hundred? Where did you observe them? In your local town? In your state? How do you know that the qualities you observed are to be attributed to the person's type rather than their personal idiosyncrasies or their culture? Your claims would be plausible if you observed thousands of people of this type from a variety of different cultures and they all exhibited the same behaviors, but I don't think any of you have done this.

    Moreover, what exactly do you think a type is other than some vague and inconsistent characteristics you read about types in online profiles and Keirsey's book? Have you done your homework? Have you thought about what exactly a type is or have you just opened some online page where it says INFJs are exceptionally creative, reserved, thin-skinned as well as fastidious and have gone on to assume that every person who fits this description is an INFJ?


    Just because your conclusions are poorly supported and frequently wrong altogether does not mean that you have to stop making them. After all, the pursuit of truth is not for everybody and there is such a thing as a useful illusion, or ideas that are false yet benefit us somehow. So I am all in support of your right to be able to say something that is completely preposterous without worrying about being censored. However, since you get the right to say what you please, I reserve such a prerogative as well and therefore wish to point out where you've gone wrong. Regard my post as purely informative rather than as a set of commands with regard to what you should do or how you should believe.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #282
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    How do you know that the qualities you observed are to be attributed to the person's type rather than their personal idiosyncrasies or their culture? Your claims would be understandable if you observed thousands of people of this type from a variety of different cultures and they all exhibited the same behaviors, but I don't think any of you have done this.
    An excellent point. However this same blurb should probably be added to pretty much every thread on this forum, as the same is done for every single type, as well as in approaching type theory in general.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #283
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    An excellent point. However this same blurb should probably be added to pretty much every thread on this forum, as the same is done for every single type, as well as in approaching type theory in general.
    I would agree that my comment applies to nearly every thread on this forum and it does apply to most discussions on type theory. However, it does not apply to all.

    One way to sidestep this problem is to say that when you're talking about typology; you're not talking about people, you're talking about concepts. The concepts in question are solidified unconscious dispositions that manifest in many different ways.

    In that regard, we don't need to observe many people as we are simply talking about how the human mind of all people works. For example, we can posit that all people have the faculty of Intuition and all people have a faculty of introversion. Hence, all people have the ability to use intuition in response to phenomena of the inner life. Accordingly, when describing introverted intuition we can simply talk about how this facet of the mind works. Such a discourse need not entail any claim about what any person is like or how he or she will behave in a certain situation.

    By this method, what kind of a typological claim could we make about Introverted Intuition? It is very simple and non-context specific: it is a faculty of the mind that allows the person to become inspired to use imagination in response to stimuli that are inherent in the mind rather than in the external world. Now, how a person will use this faculty or how he will behave, or in other words what an Ni person will do shall be heavily influenced by qualities that are specific to his personality and his culture. Psychology and sociology study personality and culture, both of which demand carefully controlled empirical investigation. Since typologists don't do empirical investigations, they must avoid making claims that require empirical investigation. In order to do that, they must restrict themselves to purely conceptual matters.

    On that account, my reconstruction of typology in Principles of Typology can be considered a discovery of a new field that can be called conceptual typology or analytic typology.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #284
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Moreover, what exactly do you think a type is other than some vague and inconsistent characteristics you read about types in online profiles and Keirsey's book? Have you done your homework? Have you thought about what exactly a type is or have you just opened some online page where it says INFJs are exceptionally creative, reserved, thin-skinned as well as fastidious and have gone on to assume that every person who fits this description is an INFJ?


    I usually like people who identify as INFJ, so I can't comment on hating them or any other type (which is ridiculous). I also don't have a comment on any other responses in this thread. And I agree that people often look at some profiles and assume the person they're dealing with fits the description. Offline, I'd probably be unlikely to be spotted as an ENTP by anyone who hasn't given the subject substantial thought.


    But my criticisms were based on observing self-typed INFJ friends/acquaintances. Whether they've mistyped themselves and they're actually ISFJ/ENFJ/INTJ/INTP/INFP is another topic, but I didn't label them INFJ. They did it themselves.
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  5. #285
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I neither hate INFJs nor dislike them. I'm not even neutral. I think they're great, and their costs don't even come close to their benefits. But that's off-topic.

    - CLOSED!
    - WORRY ALL THE TIME!
    - PARANOID!
    - STUBBORN!
    - DEMANDING!
    - HAVE AGGRESSION THAT LEAKS OUT IN WEIRD WAYS!
    - Lather, rinse, repeat.
    all of this is dead-on. yet, as far as the introverted perceivers go, we can become among the most open (vs CLOSED!). enjs talk a good game, but they often hide everything that matters (they feel more difficulty scaling down between their dominant Je and their secondary Ji, less support, more awful terrifying collapse).

    also, worry all the time + paranoid are the same. if i had to choose one thing to slough off from myself, it would absolutely be this. but the occasional bouts of counterphobic thinking do propel me into understanding the darkest of thoughts in a way that creates great sensitivity for others dealing with similar issues. the transition from nihilism to life is far more difficult for an introverted perceiver, which is why when it actually happens, we get gandhis, christs, buddhas, the state i am ins, etc.

    and yes, damn our stubbornness and demandingness. it makes those closest to us have to sacrifice for what we perceive to be the sins of others. then we turn it on ourselves. then we grow up. it takes a little too long for most of us bc we don't realize how to put all the pieces together quickly enough, to interrelate them all into a larger vision, and to represent this to ourselves/articulate so we can remember where we are and where we can go. it helps us transition from spending far too long rejecting the world rather than accepting what is available to us and making the most of the situation.

  6. #286
    Circus Maximus Sarcasticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the transition from nihilism to life is far more difficult for an introverted perceiver, which is why when it actually happens, we get gandhis, christs, buddhas, the state i am ins, etc.
    I see what you did there.

  7. #287
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I would agree that my comment applies to nearly every thread on this forum and it does apply to most discussions on type theory. However, it does not apply to all.

    One way to sidestep this problem is to say that when you're talking about typology; you're not talking about people, you're talking about concepts. The concepts in question are solidified unconscious dispositions that manifest in many different ways.
    Yes, I think conceptually the 16 types and the 8 cognitive functions are pretty cut and dry. It's a nice little framework. I think there is a disconnect however between the theory (esp. when getting to the nitty gritty like the supposed function orders) and real-world individuals (for reasons you have mentioned), and people like to use mbti/functions to try to explain every facet of every individual, which is silly.

    Like you say, individual personality quirks and society/culture will influence the way in which each of the functions would be realized by each individual. There are of course other psychological things that are outside of mbti, such as anxiety, narcissism, and the like, and life experiences, nurture, intelligence, etc, which obviously would influence the individual's perception and behavior, and these leanings could obviously skew one who is trying to self-type, as well as people trying to type them.

    Also, I sometimes think people too quickly attribute a certain behavior or disposition to a cognitive function or type, when in reality it's not so much the result of either. I also think it's common for many to say qualities X, Y, and Z define type ABCD, while although that may be true, they miss the fact that qualities X, Y, and Z also apply to types EFGH and IJKL. So someone thinking they're type ABCD because they are X, Y, and Z isn't saying a whole lot. Anyway..yeah. I'm done.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #288
    Senior Member Grace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    Yo, I have a question regarding on of the reasons why I hate INFJs.

    Why does it take you so long to get over a breakup? Each one seems to take well over a year to get over.

    I'm dealing with an INFJ who freaks out over the mere mention of her most recent ex's name and it has been 15 months now. What's worse is that this ex is my friend and every time I hang out with him I have to slink around her like a criminal because she freaks out otherwise.
    Sounds like an ISFJ, not INFJ. I get over breakups in lightning speed while my ISFJ friends take at least a year or two.

  9. #289
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    ^Nah, I wouldn't say that. Depends on the nature of the relationship/connection, as well as how it ended. If there was any question mark or lingering hope, it could well take a long time to get over the person or want to emotionally put yourself back in the place where you're open to risk/hurt/uncertainty. INFJ's could easily take a long time to let go. But as you say, INFJ's can also move on quickly. Really depends.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #290
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I have taken a long time to get over breakups, but usually it had more to do with things being left in an unresolved state with questions unanswered or with very inconsistent behaviour following. Even in cases where I recognized it was good to break up, I felt like I wanted the answers to it all before I could just be done. If there is resolution, I think INFJs move on in a pretty normal amount of time. We also don't invest all that easily in people, so it makes sense that we would want to be really sure it was over and we were done before we close that book and move on.

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