• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ENFP] ENFPs and Vengeance

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I know the descriptions make us out to be butterfly chasing lost boys in Neverland (and we are much of the time lol) but I also think that behind this playful, exuberant exterior is a hidden side of great anger and vengeance to the ENFP that can come out at certain times when faced with a particular form of injustice
- as an ENFP, do you relate to this?
- what experiences have you had with these feelings

for me personally, I've always kind of considered myself a sort of protector of children and anyone hurting or mistreating a child evokes severe rage in me (like the kind where you have to remind yourself that killing or severely bludgeoning them would be against the law)
 

Vilku

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
406
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
laws? they hold no morality in them. in fact, laws distort morality and create a false sense of justice.

we live in times where evil can thrive, and they do so in such numbers the only way to stop them is by a civil war, thus removing them.
if a person chose to be a psychopath, you would nicely follow the laws when he/she is legally destroying lives through monetary/manipulative means?
well, thats the world we live in, and the psychopaths are elites of our societies thus dictating the terms.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
Seems to me, Elfboy, that you're talking about when Fi and Te work together. This is what we call the ENFP Te-bitchslap. So yeah. I totally identify.

There are a couple of threads on this.
But let me quote myself re: this phenomenon. I think it explains what you're describing very well:

The Te Bitchslap* is an example of and ENFP's Fi and Te working in concert:

Fi feels indignant about some perceived wrong +
Te decides to let the perpetrator of said perceived wrong know about it....
usually in excruciating detail in a very logical manner.
= ENFP Te Bitchslap

#1 - When the Te Bitchslap is delivered, the other person's vulnerabilities / social niceties are not taken into consideration. (Letting social niceties take a back seat when a wrong is perceived is very, very Fi.) Marmie Dearest described this aspect of Fi very well in one of her posts:

Marmie Dearest: It's just that Fi is much more concerned with their internal feeling of what is right and true, even if that means being disruptive. It's not like seeking disruption, but not minding if you cause it if it promotes what the Fi user sees as right or true. Authenticity is seen as paramount, even though Fi users may also like harmony. For Fe users it seems that harmony and connection are paramount, even though they may also like authenticity.

#2 - Te steps in. What is of utmost importance to Te (ENFP's tertiary function) is to communicate in a dispassionate manner how wrong the other person is. Another characteristic of the Te Bitchslap is that it tends to be very well-organized. For example, when I've given a Te Bitchslap in writing, I tend to bullet point and sequentially number it. This is very Te of me. Te likes to figure out how to get to from Point A to Point B in the most logical and concise manner possible. Or think of it like this: Te was made for PowerPoint presentations. Imagine having to deliver a critique of someone via a PowerPoint slide show.... Well you get the idea.
 

Kitsune413

New member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
59
MBTI Type
enfp
I've never said it out loud before, but was going to mention it at some point.

If someone is mean to me I can let it slide. I always assumed that it was physical size (I'm 6'3"/6'4"ish) that has kept me from having to deal with confrontation my whole life. But honestly its probably been my ability to mediate. If you're mean to me I might daydream about doing something nasty to you. But I've got enough tools to keep myself from doing it. Maybe I get upset, but I'll let it slide. Work it out in my own head. Maybe think up a response later.

But if someone is mean to someone else. Or hurts something. Its over. Rage in my life when personally slighted as always been cold and calculated but I've always managed to not act upon it. But rage when someone does something to someone else is thoughtless. Instant and its overwhelming suggestion of overwhelming amounts of unbearable pain have also always ended those situations too.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION]
sort of, it seems a particularly popular pass time among ENFP 7w8s at least. in fact, it's gotten to the point with me where my normal communication style has absorbed aspects of the Ne/Te bitch slap (in terms of structure and clear organization)

sometimes I think it runs deeper than that though. it doesn't take a lot for me to administer an Ne/Te bitch slap (it can range from funny and even somewhat nice to total annihilation; from gently correcting someone by showing them empirical logic to outright destroying their entire belief system and thought processes) but this is something much more severe, like a strong form of punitive, condemning anger (for me it comes out primarily when I see children being mistreated)
(from one of my posts on personality cafe on the same subject)
thank you for providing contrast.
as a whole
- I think the ESTP's vengeance is a little more sudden to emerge; sudden to leave, less personal, though usually extremely physically intimidating and intense for a brief period.
- ISTP's vengeance is marked by controlled tension and patience followed by swift brutality and excessively cruelty. all the while maintaining a calm expression and probably not saying anything
- the ENFP's vengeance surfaces rarely, but is intense and vindictive and lingers longer. often it's more condemning and tends to frame it's adversary as evil or less than human "they're like animals! and i slaughtered them like animals! I hate them
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've never said it out loud before, but was going to mention it at some point.
If someone is mean to me I can let it slide. I always assumed that it was physical size (I'm 6'3"/6'4"ish) that has kept me from having to deal with confrontation my whole life. But honestly its probably been my ability to mediate. If you're mean to me I might daydream about doing something nasty to you. But I've got enough tools to keep myself from doing it. Maybe I get upset, but I'll let it slide. Work it out in my own head. Maybe think up a response later.
But if someone is mean to someone else. Or hurts something. Its over. Rage in my life when personally slighted as always been cold and calculated but I've always managed to not act upon it. But rage when someone does something to someone else is thoughtless. Instant and its overwhelming suggestion of overwhelming amounts of unbearable pain have also always ended those situations too.

I think ENFPs are often the protectors of the innocent and children, though we may not seem like it at first
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION] this is something much more severe [than an ENFP Te-bitchslap], like a strong form of punitive, condemning anger (for me it comes out primarily when I see children being mistreated)

That sounds like hallmark Fi indignation at a perceived injustice to me. I'm very quick to forgive and forget, but if certain of my Fi values are crossed, then watch out! I'm ruthless in beating down the offender. And, I can remember/nurse such righteous anger for what seem like (at least for an ENFP) a very, very long time.

So I never thought of this as vengeance before, but I guess it is. Hmmm... interesting.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
That sounds like hallmark Fi indignation at a perceived injustice to me. I'm very quick to forgive and forget, but if certain of my Fi values are crossed, then watch out! I'm ruthless in beating down the offender. And, I can remember/nurse such righteous anger for what seem like (at least for an ENFP) a very, very long time.
So I never thought of this as vengeance before, but I guess it is. Hmmm... interesting.

for me, this point comes when I eventually deem the core of someone's belief system and way of living as morally atrocious "they're like animals! and I slaughtered them like animals!" (Anakin Skywalker, ENFP 8w7) is what I would think were I to act on these feelings of vengeance
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i don't relate to the part about seeking vengeance but i do feel very protective of children or really just anyone who is being taken advantage or not being treated with respect or is in some way being stripped of their power...like they are less than...i can't take it...it's like some odd alien instinct gets tripped and our singular focus...is must protect the weak...weird stuff..very apt name..the advocate.
 

Betty Blue

Let me count the ways
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
5,063
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7W6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Often anger i feel towards others is short lived, i am generally not one to hold grudges but there have been rare isolated occaisions. Like the above i feel compelled to intervene when it is concerning someone less able i.e a child being bullied or a teen is being mobbed. In those instances i am likely to act without much planning at all...those are times when a delay for thinking purposes can be crucially detrimental to the situation at hand. However it is remarkable how calm i can be in those situations...almost like things go in slow motion and i am able to think and act superhumanley fast. That is also the case in times of emergency.
As for bitterness and long term resentment i deal with those in a very different way. Because i am often emotionally aware of my own feelings towards things i may for example...have a good cry to clear space for the positive thoughts and also to create pathways to solutions.
I said recently, regarding a person who has caused me a great deal of pain and betrayed my trust on a highly intense and deep level, that i would still help them if they desperately needed it and asked for it, not that i havn't fantasized about declining putting them out if they were on fire...when the hurt was the rawest at least.
But i find it difficult to hold onto negative feelings towards others because i find it taxing on myself...and cancerous.
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i feel the same...it does feel toxic. it takes too much energy to sustain that negative emotional state.
 

Santosha

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,516
MBTI Type
HUMR
Enneagram
6
Instinctual Variant
sx
I relate. Animals, children and old people. Also people who can not protect themsleves. Anytime I notice the stronger picking on the weaker, I see red. Remaining uninvolved is often impossible, does not compute.

The thing is, I think that people who engage in incredibley unethical behavior are difficult to shame. If they really understood how lowly and cowardice their behavior is or was, they wouldn't be doing it to begin with. So you can intervene and let them know what you think, and what you think their behavior says about them.. you can even do this very openly for all to see, but what is the end result?

There is definately a victim-perpetraitor cycle, and I think its important to remember this. Most people that sexually abuse others have at some point, been sexually abused. Most people that hit or berate others have at some point, been hit or berated. To inflict pain on another, to release that type of negative energy, I think that one must be in a very dark and miserable place themself. So it begs the question, in the grandest of schemes, who is truly the victim? You do not need to interfere with tyrants, they already experience the consequence of their tyranny, in every moment of their own loveless, disconnected and misunderstood existance.

There is no need for vengenace, only the need to empower victims, and I mean all victims.. even the rotten ones. Raise awareness and consciousness. Lead by being compassionate and understanding, building others up - never tearing them down. When it comes to children, elderly and animals.. interfere by changing circumstances.. not vengeance.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I relate. Animals, children and old people. Also people who can not protect themsleves. Anytime I notice the stronger picking on the weaker, I see red. Remaining uninvolved is often impossible, does not compute.

The thing is, I think that people who engage in incredibley unethical behavior are difficult to shame. If they really understood how lowly and cowardice their behavior is or was, they wouldn't be doing it to begin with. So you can intervene and let them know what you think, and what you think their behavior says about them.. you can even do this very openly for all to see, but what is the end result?

There is definately a victim-perpetraitor cycle, and I think its important to remember this. Most people that sexually abuse others have at some point, been sexually abused. Most people that hit or berate others have at some point, been hit or berated. To inflict pain on another, to release that type of negative energy, I think that one must be in a very dark and miserable place themself. So it begs the question, in the grandest of schemes, who is truly the victim? You do not need to interfere with tyrants, they already experience the consequence of their tyranny, in every moment of their own loveless, disconnected and misunderstood existance.

There is no need for vengenace, only the need to empower victims, and I mean all victims.. even the rotten ones. Raise awareness and consciousness. Lead by being compassionate and understanding, building others up - never tearing them down. When it comes to children, elderly and animals.. interfere by changing circumstances.. not vengeance.

true but
- that's boring lol
- there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)
 

Santosha

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,516
MBTI Type
HUMR
Enneagram
6
Instinctual Variant
sx
true but
- good luck out-veangencing a psycopath
- especially another Ne dom psychopath with no fi limitation lol
 

Hazashin

Secret Sex Freak
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,157
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
true but
- that's boring lol

Being bored is much better than being a prick.

- there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)

Exceptions to what?
 

Rapunzel

New member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
1
I can relate to a lot of what is said here. I'm the same way. First of all, if someone's mistreating me in some way, it takes a long time for me to say, "Stop it." I'll express dislike for the action, but not all that firmly. After a prolonged period of the other person ignoring me, on comes this infamous ENFP Te Bitchslap. However, when I feel someone else is being mistreated, especially if it's a friend… so much rage so fast. I mean granted, there usually have to be multiple instances for me to get involved, but the intensity... Yeesh.

One time I've unleashed this "Bitchslap" was in the form of a letter to someone who became an ex friend. I'm not proud of it, because it was way too harsh. I pretty much picked at her every weakness and fear and obliterated her. It was too much. It has noticeable scarred her, as I've found out from friends. At the same time, the reason it happened in the first place was because she was mistreating our friends, especially my one friend who was in love with her, and even physically injured me when she got especially annoyed on one occasion. The truth is, I really didn't want to damage her. I just wanted her to see how hurtful she was to others, and to change.

That's the thing. It usually starts with just defending people and wanting the person to see their wrongs, but then my rage gets in the way and it escalates to insulting their moral character, which I don't really want to do...

Even so, as has also been said, if the person above really and truly needed my help and had no one else, I would still probably help them.

I very rarely hold a "grudge", but when I do… well… You really have to screw up. Really, really badly. Multiple times. At a high intensity. Only maybe one person in my life has earned permanent grudge status.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
I recognize the notion of short term aggression as a response to repeated provocation, aka, the bitchslap.

I also embrace the notion of being willing to take on armies, fight to the end of time and never give up or give in, if in defense of those who are weaker or are being abused. The strength I feel is this situation is endless and enormous. Like a jedi knight or zena, the warrior princess, or like an ancient knight fighting an evil foe, I will not be defetaed and allow others to be hurt....

However I cant hold anger or vengence on my own behalf very well:

i feel the same...it does feel toxic. it takes too much energy to sustain that negative emotional state.

^^This is totally true. It just is exhausting. I can almost always put the situation into a new perspective and then see how I had a role in the negative outcome, and see how the other did what they (typically) felt to be the right thing-and I may be hurt but I cant feel a need for vengence or a desire to hold negative thoughts about them. I suspect I have built a reflection of them into my own FiSi, a simulation so to speak, so to continue to hurt them, is to hurt myself, a very painful thing.

I do note uprising of sporadic feelings of nasty angstfulness towards others who endlessly pick on me, but I try really, really hard to ignore this and move on, as typically I did piss them off at some point.

- there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)

true but
- good luck out-veangencing a psycopath
- especially another Ne dom psychopath with no fi limitation lol

Intutively, at a visceral level, I can "feel" what [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] is talking about.

(Ti/Fe please ignore the following statements as they are inapplicable to you guys)

There are people in the world who have disregarded and cut themselves free from moral bindings. Once this has happened, they no longer can feel the result of thier actions upon others and can create terrible harm on others. They often act out of rage or domination or out of feelings of moral exclusion (ie "those people" should not be felt for, as they are not part of "my" social group) or out of a coldness that springs from years of abuse.

When this happens, the best answer is that they need to be eliminated or isolated from the rest of society. This sounds horrifically harsh and I admit that it is. However if these people are allowed to continue to co-exist, they prey upon others and can inflict terrible harm. My heart says that all people can change and grow and that simply love can expediate that process-however sometimes the damage is too far gone and people are too fucked up. ( I say this as a person who sufferred at the hands of abusive individuals) One-on-one, as an individual, perhaps you could change them. Perhaps as a society, we should be obligated to identify them and help them (which we fail at now). However in the interim, if an individual is inflicting massive harm to others around them (tyrants or abusive individuals), then I support them being killed and would be willing to do so myself, if it would save the lives of many others....perhaps even one other? I dunno.

This isnt vengence, so much as Fi fueled cold rightousness. A cold burning fury? If anyone should hurt my children or those very close to me? There would be no greater fury to be felt.

(Hysterically, the idea of joining the military or CIA has become somewhat appealing to me in my old age and I find Hunter Harrington to be quite admirable. I feel honor bound.)

I also think this sense of cold burning rightousness actually can create martrys/suicidal terrorists-if you expose an enfp to enough trama as a child and it can become fuel for a sense of rightousness, they simply look for a cause to sacrifice themselves for, if they think it will resolve the pain others feel. Thus the trick to dealing with a terrorist is to first acknowledge and affirm thier values, then approach them logically with data and remedy the pain the "others" are feeling.
 

Kitsune413

New member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
59
MBTI Type
enfp
However it is remarkable how calm i can be in those situations...almost like things go in slow motion and i am able to think and act superhumanley fast. That is also the case in times of emergency.

Its odd how life can just knock me out. I'm sensitive. I can be depressed. I can get stressed out.

But when the coin drops I've got ice water in my veins.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I recognize the notion of short term aggression as a response to repeated provocation, aka, the bitchslap.

I also embrace the notion of being willing to take on armies, fight to the end of time and never give up or give in, if in defense of those who are weaker or are being abused. The strength I feel is this situation is endless and enormous. Like a jedi knight or zena, the warrior princess, or like an ancient knight fighting an evil foe, I will not be defetaed and allow others to be hurt....

However I cant hold anger or vengence on my own behalf very well:



^^This is totally true. It just is exhausting. I can almost always put the situation into a new perspective and then see how I had a role in the negative outcome, and see how the other did what they (typically) felt to be the right thing-and I may be hurt but I cant feel a need for vengence or a desire to hold negative thoughts about them. I suspect I have built a reflection of them into my own FiSi, a simulation so to speak, so to continue to hurt them, is to hurt myself, a very painful thing.

I do note uprising of sporadic feelings of nasty angstfulness towards others who endlessly pick on me, but I try really, really hard to ignore this and move on, as typically I did piss them off at some point.





Intutively, at a visceral level, I can "feel" what [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] is talking about.

(Ti/Fe please ignore the following statements as they are inapplicable to you guys)

There are people in the world who have disregarded and cut themselves free from moral bindings. Once this has happened, they no longer can feel the result of thier actions upon others and can create terrible harm on others. They often act out of rage or domination or out of feelings of moral exclusion (ie "those people" should not be felt for, as they are not part of "my" social group) or out of a coldness that springs from years of abuse.

When this happens, the best answer is that they need to be eliminated or isolated from the rest of society. This sounds horrifically harsh and I admit that it is. However if these people are allowed to continue to co-exist, they prey upon others and can inflict terrible harm. My heart says that all people can change and grow and that simply love can expediate that process-however sometimes the damage is too far gone and people are too fucked up. ( I say this as a person who sufferred at the hands of abusive individuals) One-on-one, as an individual, perhaps you could change them. Perhaps as a society, we should be obligated to identify them and help them (which we fail at now). However in the interim, if an individual is inflicting massive harm to others around them (tyrants or abusive individuals), then I support them being killed and would be willing to do so myself, if it would save the lives of many others....perhaps even one other? I dunno.

This isnt vengence, so much as Fi fueled cold rightousness. A cold burning fury? If anyone should hurt my children or those very close to me? There would be no greater fury to be felt.

(Hysterically, the idea of joining the military or CIA has become somewhat appealing to me in my old age and I find Hunter Harrington to be quite admirable. I feel honor bound.)

I also think this sense of cold burning rightousness actually can create martrys/suicidal terrorists-if you expose an enfp to enough trama as a child and it can become fuel for a sense of rightousness, they simply look for a cause to sacrifice themselves for, if they think it will resolve the pain others feel. Thus the trick to dealing with a terrorist is to first acknowledge and affirm thier values, then approach them logically with data and remedy the pain the "others" are feeling.

you nailed it. THIS is the stuff I'm talking about that is left out of the majority of ENFP descriptions that make us out to be ditzy, butterfly chasing goofballs
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I get very, very sharp-tongued once I feel like people have crossed blatant ethical boundaries. It is one thing to hurt oneself or to have a one-on-one feud, but to extend that hurt to society and/or innocents is unacceptable, and I feel like it is my right and obligation as a member of the human collective to protect others.

Ideally, of course, one realizes that hurt being extraverted comes from hurt inside, and helps the aggressor find a solution to their hurting once damage control has been done.
 
Top