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  1. #11
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i feel the same...it does feel toxic. it takes too much energy to sustain that negative emotional state.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #12
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    I relate. Animals, children and old people. Also people who can not protect themsleves. Anytime I notice the stronger picking on the weaker, I see red. Remaining uninvolved is often impossible, does not compute.

    The thing is, I think that people who engage in incredibley unethical behavior are difficult to shame. If they really understood how lowly and cowardice their behavior is or was, they wouldn't be doing it to begin with. So you can intervene and let them know what you think, and what you think their behavior says about them.. you can even do this very openly for all to see, but what is the end result?

    There is definately a victim-perpetraitor cycle, and I think its important to remember this. Most people that sexually abuse others have at some point, been sexually abused. Most people that hit or berate others have at some point, been hit or berated. To inflict pain on another, to release that type of negative energy, I think that one must be in a very dark and miserable place themself. So it begs the question, in the grandest of schemes, who is truly the victim? You do not need to interfere with tyrants, they already experience the consequence of their tyranny, in every moment of their own loveless, disconnected and misunderstood existance.

    There is no need for vengenace, only the need to empower victims, and I mean all victims.. even the rotten ones. Raise awareness and consciousness. Lead by being compassionate and understanding, building others up - never tearing them down. When it comes to children, elderly and animals.. interfere by changing circumstances.. not vengeance.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I relate. Animals, children and old people. Also people who can not protect themsleves. Anytime I notice the stronger picking on the weaker, I see red. Remaining uninvolved is often impossible, does not compute.

    The thing is, I think that people who engage in incredibley unethical behavior are difficult to shame. If they really understood how lowly and cowardice their behavior is or was, they wouldn't be doing it to begin with. So you can intervene and let them know what you think, and what you think their behavior says about them.. you can even do this very openly for all to see, but what is the end result?

    There is definately a victim-perpetraitor cycle, and I think its important to remember this. Most people that sexually abuse others have at some point, been sexually abused. Most people that hit or berate others have at some point, been hit or berated. To inflict pain on another, to release that type of negative energy, I think that one must be in a very dark and miserable place themself. So it begs the question, in the grandest of schemes, who is truly the victim? You do not need to interfere with tyrants, they already experience the consequence of their tyranny, in every moment of their own loveless, disconnected and misunderstood existance.

    There is no need for vengenace, only the need to empower victims, and I mean all victims.. even the rotten ones. Raise awareness and consciousness. Lead by being compassionate and understanding, building others up - never tearing them down. When it comes to children, elderly and animals.. interfere by changing circumstances.. not vengeance.
    true but
    - that's boring lol
    - there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    true but
    - good luck out-veangencing a psycopath
    - especially another Ne dom psychopath with no fi limitation lol
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  5. #15
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    true but
    - that's boring lol
    Being bored is much better than being a prick.

    - there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)
    Exceptions to what?
    MBTI: INFP
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    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

    Tatiana ♥

  6. #16
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    I can relate to a lot of what is said here. I'm the same way. First of all, if someone's mistreating me in some way, it takes a long time for me to say, "Stop it." I'll express dislike for the action, but not all that firmly. After a prolonged period of the other person ignoring me, on comes this infamous ENFP Te Bitchslap. However, when I feel someone else is being mistreated, especially if it's a friend… so much rage so fast. I mean granted, there usually have to be multiple instances for me to get involved, but the intensity... Yeesh.

    One time I've unleashed this "Bitchslap" was in the form of a letter to someone who became an ex friend. I'm not proud of it, because it was way too harsh. I pretty much picked at her every weakness and fear and obliterated her. It was too much. It has noticeable scarred her, as I've found out from friends. At the same time, the reason it happened in the first place was because she was mistreating our friends, especially my one friend who was in love with her, and even physically injured me when she got especially annoyed on one occasion. The truth is, I really didn't want to damage her. I just wanted her to see how hurtful she was to others, and to change.

    That's the thing. It usually starts with just defending people and wanting the person to see their wrongs, but then my rage gets in the way and it escalates to insulting their moral character, which I don't really want to do...

    Even so, as has also been said, if the person above really and truly needed my help and had no one else, I would still probably help them.

    I very rarely hold a "grudge", but when I do… well… You really have to screw up. Really, really badly. Multiple times. At a high intensity. Only maybe one person in my life has earned permanent grudge status.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I recognize the notion of short term aggression as a response to repeated provocation, aka, the bitchslap.

    I also embrace the notion of being willing to take on armies, fight to the end of time and never give up or give in, if in defense of those who are weaker or are being abused. The strength I feel is this situation is endless and enormous. Like a jedi knight or zena, the warrior princess, or like an ancient knight fighting an evil foe, I will not be defetaed and allow others to be hurt....

    However I cant hold anger or vengence on my own behalf very well:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i feel the same...it does feel toxic. it takes too much energy to sustain that negative emotional state.
    ^^This is totally true. It just is exhausting. I can almost always put the situation into a new perspective and then see how I had a role in the negative outcome, and see how the other did what they (typically) felt to be the right thing-and I may be hurt but I cant feel a need for vengence or a desire to hold negative thoughts about them. I suspect I have built a reflection of them into my own FiSi, a simulation so to speak, so to continue to hurt them, is to hurt myself, a very painful thing.

    I do note uprising of sporadic feelings of nasty angstfulness towards others who endlessly pick on me, but I try really, really hard to ignore this and move on, as typically I did piss them off at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - there are actually a lot of exceptions, they're called psychopaths and they're actually relatively common (something like %1-3 of the population)
    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    true but
    - good luck out-veangencing a psycopath
    - especially another Ne dom psychopath with no fi limitation lol
    Intutively, at a visceral level, I can "feel" what @Elfboy is talking about.

    (Ti/Fe please ignore the following statements as they are inapplicable to you guys)

    There are people in the world who have disregarded and cut themselves free from moral bindings. Once this has happened, they no longer can feel the result of thier actions upon others and can create terrible harm on others. They often act out of rage or domination or out of feelings of moral exclusion (ie "those people" should not be felt for, as they are not part of "my" social group) or out of a coldness that springs from years of abuse.

    When this happens, the best answer is that they need to be eliminated or isolated from the rest of society. This sounds horrifically harsh and I admit that it is. However if these people are allowed to continue to co-exist, they prey upon others and can inflict terrible harm. My heart says that all people can change and grow and that simply love can expediate that process-however sometimes the damage is too far gone and people are too fucked up. ( I say this as a person who sufferred at the hands of abusive individuals) One-on-one, as an individual, perhaps you could change them. Perhaps as a society, we should be obligated to identify them and help them (which we fail at now). However in the interim, if an individual is inflicting massive harm to others around them (tyrants or abusive individuals), then I support them being killed and would be willing to do so myself, if it would save the lives of many others....perhaps even one other? I dunno.

    This isnt vengence, so much as Fi fueled cold rightousness. A cold burning fury? If anyone should hurt my children or those very close to me? There would be no greater fury to be felt.

    (Hysterically, the idea of joining the military or CIA has become somewhat appealing to me in my old age and I find Hunter Harrington to be quite admirable. I feel honor bound.)

    I also think this sense of cold burning rightousness actually can create martrys/suicidal terrorists-if you expose an enfp to enough trama as a child and it can become fuel for a sense of rightousness, they simply look for a cause to sacrifice themselves for, if they think it will resolve the pain others feel. Thus the trick to dealing with a terrorist is to first acknowledge and affirm thier values, then approach them logically with data and remedy the pain the "others" are feeling.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    However it is remarkable how calm i can be in those situations...almost like things go in slow motion and i am able to think and act superhumanley fast. That is also the case in times of emergency.
    Its odd how life can just knock me out. I'm sensitive. I can be depressed. I can get stressed out.

    But when the coin drops I've got ice water in my veins.
    A Fox isn't sly. He just can't think any slower.

  9. #19
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I recognize the notion of short term aggression as a response to repeated provocation, aka, the bitchslap.

    I also embrace the notion of being willing to take on armies, fight to the end of time and never give up or give in, if in defense of those who are weaker or are being abused. The strength I feel is this situation is endless and enormous. Like a jedi knight or zena, the warrior princess, or like an ancient knight fighting an evil foe, I will not be defetaed and allow others to be hurt....

    However I cant hold anger or vengence on my own behalf very well:



    ^^This is totally true. It just is exhausting. I can almost always put the situation into a new perspective and then see how I had a role in the negative outcome, and see how the other did what they (typically) felt to be the right thing-and I may be hurt but I cant feel a need for vengence or a desire to hold negative thoughts about them. I suspect I have built a reflection of them into my own FiSi, a simulation so to speak, so to continue to hurt them, is to hurt myself, a very painful thing.

    I do note uprising of sporadic feelings of nasty angstfulness towards others who endlessly pick on me, but I try really, really hard to ignore this and move on, as typically I did piss them off at some point.





    Intutively, at a visceral level, I can "feel" what @Elfboy is talking about.

    (Ti/Fe please ignore the following statements as they are inapplicable to you guys)

    There are people in the world who have disregarded and cut themselves free from moral bindings. Once this has happened, they no longer can feel the result of thier actions upon others and can create terrible harm on others. They often act out of rage or domination or out of feelings of moral exclusion (ie "those people" should not be felt for, as they are not part of "my" social group) or out of a coldness that springs from years of abuse.

    When this happens, the best answer is that they need to be eliminated or isolated from the rest of society. This sounds horrifically harsh and I admit that it is. However if these people are allowed to continue to co-exist, they prey upon others and can inflict terrible harm. My heart says that all people can change and grow and that simply love can expediate that process-however sometimes the damage is too far gone and people are too fucked up. ( I say this as a person who sufferred at the hands of abusive individuals) One-on-one, as an individual, perhaps you could change them. Perhaps as a society, we should be obligated to identify them and help them (which we fail at now). However in the interim, if an individual is inflicting massive harm to others around them (tyrants or abusive individuals), then I support them being killed and would be willing to do so myself, if it would save the lives of many others....perhaps even one other? I dunno.

    This isnt vengence, so much as Fi fueled cold rightousness. A cold burning fury? If anyone should hurt my children or those very close to me? There would be no greater fury to be felt.

    (Hysterically, the idea of joining the military or CIA has become somewhat appealing to me in my old age and I find Hunter Harrington to be quite admirable. I feel honor bound.)

    I also think this sense of cold burning rightousness actually can create martrys/suicidal terrorists-if you expose an enfp to enough trama as a child and it can become fuel for a sense of rightousness, they simply look for a cause to sacrifice themselves for, if they think it will resolve the pain others feel. Thus the trick to dealing with a terrorist is to first acknowledge and affirm thier values, then approach them logically with data and remedy the pain the "others" are feeling.
    you nailed it. THIS is the stuff I'm talking about that is left out of the majority of ENFP descriptions that make us out to be ditzy, butterfly chasing goofballs
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I get very, very sharp-tongued once I feel like people have crossed blatant ethical boundaries. It is one thing to hurt oneself or to have a one-on-one feud, but to extend that hurt to society and/or innocents is unacceptable, and I feel like it is my right and obligation as a member of the human collective to protect others.

    Ideally, of course, one realizes that hurt being extraverted comes from hurt inside, and helps the aggressor find a solution to their hurting once damage control has been done.

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