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  1. #31
    Member Battle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post

    The point of communication is to bridge the existential divide that lies between each and every *one* of us. I am not you, you are not me. If you want to get to *know* me, and if you want me to get to *know* you, integrity in communication is key. And by *know* I mean get to know all the internal processes that are more or less hidden from the "observable" world.

    I can't see your brain or read your thoughts, so tell me what you think, and tell me how you feel! If you want to be understood/cared for/"seen", then make yourself known.

    Ne tangent: Words are an effective tool in "materializing" the abstract.
    This is what i have been trying to tell people my whole life but couldnt find the words.

    Thanks.

  2. #32
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyraining View Post
    To Haphazard: I understand where you're getting at - I think you're talking about tact in handling situations involving the struggle against being authentic and also the rationality behind it all (are you?).

    I think my best answer to you will would be to answer your scenario. The answer is no - if you replaced punch someone with verbal ranting, the outcome concerning authenticity would not be different. Whether you punch the person or restrain yourself, I think you're being authentic either way if you know why you performed in such way (a bit confusing...I'll try to explain)

    If you punch the person - the most forthright action - a result of your feelings: it can be seen as authentic following the thought of what caused you to feel angry.

    If you don't and restrain yourself - the diplomatic, tactful action - a result of your logical reasoning: Although may seem insincere to youself, can also be seen as authentic to your rational side/authentic to the side of you that wants everybody to feel happy :P.

    Notice how I haven't discussed the consequences. Authenticity is fluid and somewhat subjective which is all well and good but the consequences are another matter entirely which is what I think the crux of this discussion should be about.

    I understand I'm not really answering this but sending you around in a wheel but my advice would be the action that has the most favourable outcome to all parties your heart (whether it be high ideals eg. compassion or just plain passion eg. anger) and brain (eg. consequences, tact) in the picture as well (but for that you need to 'know thyself' first).

    Hope you can make sense of that...
    Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I keep hearing about these sorts of things, 'integrity' and whatnot in school and it makes me wonder if the people who create that stuff they feed us have ever been in an actual confrontation or argument before.

    There are people out there who 'want you to be honest' when you critique, and then you actually give an honest critique and they end up bawling. And you don't know if what you did was right or wrong, because they told you to be tough and that they could take it, but fuck, they're sobbing! Or you know that behaving diplomatically and let everybody talk out their differences won't work in a situation, so it's best off to just pave over the differences by laying down some law.

    People have reasons for doing stuff. So what exactly do these NFs mean by hating 'phony'-ness? Wouldn't it necessarily mean that everyone is being true to their intents, whether or not they are precisely disclosing their feelings on things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric View Post
    Well since you put it that way, NTs do seems emotionally retarded. But if you look at it from a perspective, most feelings expressed are conformistic and do seem a little fake. I rarely participate in it if it isn't backed up by a strong Fi or vice-versa. I mainly express feelings(passion) through my works which is largely hidden. So, it may look like I'm a robot. I think this is the thing with NTs. Many would express their feelings through their projects rather than to use it to agree with others.
    If you look at that old OCEAN theory, I bet realistically most NFs are high on agreeableness while NTs are low on that. Scientist do have to disagree with other people's truth to bring out the real truth. Also, it is almost impossible in a debate between two scientist to "show each other the light".

    I never have a problem discerning anger so I'm obfuscated by your comment that NTs need a math formula for it. You know, not all NTs are math or reading based, but it's quite a funny stereotype anyways.

    NT's have a different concept of true self. This is why you don't get the NF's version.
    I can see this. A lot of people seem to agree that NTs are 'robots' but they're not. Emotions aren't expressed through words or public displays but rather through actions.

    Emotions are not trying to be subdued, and they naturally come out sometimes. But, when people are absolutely SHOCKED when they come out, it may convince the NT that they have no reason showing it anymore because the reaction wasn't worth the release, and may pack up tighter into a shell of intuition and thinking.

    An NT trying to become enlightened in the ways of the NFs shouldn't be turned away, even if it is unusual and sometimes downright unnatural. Curiosity shouldn't be discouraged, though that's what I'm sensing here, at times...

  3. #33
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    There are people out there who 'want you to be honest' when you critique, and then you actually give an honest critique and they end up bawling. And you don't know if what you did was right or wrong, because they told you to be tough and that they could take it, but fuck, they're sobbing! Or you know that behaving diplomatically and let everybody talk out their differences won't work in a situation, so it's best off to just pave over the differences by laying down some law.

    People have reasons for doing stuff. So what exactly do these NFs mean by hating 'phony'-ness? Wouldn't it necessarily mean that everyone is being true to their intents, whether or not they are precisely disclosing their feelings on things?
    In my experience when someone asks for your honest opinion on something its because they already know the truth of the matter, it's just too harmful to themselves to accept it, so they look outward for you to prove them wrong. The rationale being that whatever you say is the "truth", and that they'd rather be wrong about whatever they felt, than have to accept a painful reality.

    I've never really taken the "I hate phony people" stance, because I believe that is just a way of opting out of actually thinking. Most people don't want to be bothered by the inconvenience of analyzing a person's behavior to find out their true motives. They want you to be a simple and forthright as possible. We are all phony to an extent, the only people who don't do this are young children, they are true to themselves.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  4. #34
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hmm, you know I hope you didn't take my comments as discouraging understanding types. I was just pointing out one of my little beefs from my experience on this site.

    Please, be more curious! NFs are attention whores (or at least just me)

    And, NFs can definitely relate to having unwelcome reactions to emotional reactions. A lot of emotional expression or just expression IS society based and there are guidelines and rules. The hallmark of a well-socialized and well-integrated person and even an effective social networker is understanding these rules and expectations and working them to your advantage.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  5. #35
    Member Electric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    And, NFs can definitely relate to having unwelcome reactions to emotional reactions. A lot of emotional expression or just expression IS society based and there are guidelines and rules. The hallmark of a well-socialized and well-integrated person and even an effective social networker is understanding these rules and expectations and working them to your advantage.
    I think that NTs understand the fine point of socialization however it is a secondary priority. It's not like they don't care about people, it's that they wish to keep their independence. NFs and SJs are cooperative people that want to work together in a joint and equal partnerships. They rely on social rules to do this. However, NTs and SPs are utilizing people that want to work together in separate yet equal partnerships. They don't rely on social rules.

  6. #36
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Hmm, you know I hope you didn't take my comments as discouraging understanding types. I was just pointing out one of my little beefs from my experience on this site.

    Please, be more curious! NFs are attention whores (or at least just me)

    And, NFs can definitely relate to having unwelcome reactions to emotional reactions. A lot of emotional expression or just expression IS society based and there are guidelines and rules. The hallmark of a well-socialized and well-integrated person and even an effective social networker is understanding these rules and expectations and working them to your advantage.
    Well then, here's what I didn't like:

    I've noticed some comments by NT's on this forum equating emotions with fakeness? And then they wonder why people call them robots. Yes, it's a point of frustration with me b/c how many times and ways do you need to tell someone 'you have made me angry' before they 'believe' you? Or it's like you have to write out a mathematical equation 'proving' that 1) you really are angry and 2) you anger is 'correct'.

    And I'm sorry, but if you are uncomfortable and not very good at dealing with with emotions -- your own, other peoples, emotional displays in general, then where in the world do you get the idea that you're somehow qualified to 'judge' the 'authenticity' or 'value' of other people's emotional expression?

    See, my valuing of authenticity is to be true to yourself and be HONEST with other people.

    The one thing that pisses me off to no end is when people are so stuck inside themselves that they hide behind all this rationalizing, deflection, and bs instead of just coming out honestly and saying what they mean, what they feel, and why. Or just get so 'freaked out' by someone's responses to them they go on self-defense mode or attack. Sure, they're acting instinctively (?) but they aren't allowing themselves to be 'authentic' -- they're stuck and they are possibly invalidating someone who IS being authentic.
    Emotions themselves are not fake but in general, an NT expressing them in a socially acceptable manner will make them feel fake to the poor NT expressing them. Expression doesn't feel genuine, so we usually refrain. And if we do not judge to some extent, we can't use or understand them at all. The best way to learn something is by doing sometimes, and to tell us to not even try to react to emotions would only succeed in making us further robots.

    The last part of this post is pure feeling extrovert. Introverts tend to be attached to what they say and if it gets torn apart, they can get upset or defensive. Extroverts tend to get offensive about certain topics. You don't take into consideration that some people need to refine the brain vomit that goes on in their heads for human consumption whenever they speak. Sometimes, people know that honesty would not be tactful, and need to figure out what to say instead.

    Feeling comes into play because of all of this talk of 'authenticity.' You're expecting an awful lot from people. Do you honestly want to hear, "I'm staring at you because you're an awful bitch and I hate you?" (not that I do) but if you listened to EVERYBODY's thoughts uncensored, well, let's just say that you probably wouldn't like it -- there's a reason why mind-readers tend to go insane in fiction.

    And then you go on about invalidation! Ts don't understand this. What they're looking for is what's 'right' in a situation and not who's being authentic or not. And this 'shutting down' may be authenticity... because they're truly going to what they feel. They feel attacked, and are simply showing it. Or would this be invalidation of the person going into 'defense mode' by saying that they are being defensive!

    At the top, you're invalidating the NTs' authentic responses and attempts with emotions, while at the bottom you say that invalidation of authentic responses is wrong. Well, which are you truly supporting? Or... are you possibly supporting both?

    And people wonder why NTs get confused...

  7. #37
    Member Electric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    At the top, you're invalidating the NTs' authentic responses and attempts with emotions, while at the bottom you say that invalidation of authentic responses is wrong. Well, which are you truly supporting? Or... are you possibly supporting both?

    And people wonder why NTs get confused...
    haha, good point. The ENFPs on this board should understand that they have a thought process similar to the master bullshitter ENTPs. They can use Fi to skew any perspective. What may be a possibility to them can be very unlikely. and I just wanted to bring that up....

  8. #38
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    authenticity is an illusion. a false concept. people who "mean well," etc. you consider whether someone is doing his/her best. complete integration is always being undone by new situations, contexts, circumstances. like yarn unraveling. your ability to understand them does not necessarily reflect on their "character," whatever that is (conscientiousness? embodied social standards?).

    the more spontaneous and playful i feel, the more weird shit comes out. adopt more faces, different surfaces, project new things that surprise me. and my sense of humor is different than yours. at times the vulgar and crass and mirthful jokes of my intj offend me deeply (they're not about me, it's the perspective toward the world, toward the reality of feeling, etc). i get so like bruised by those attitudes. is nothing sacred?

    at other times i step on other people's toes and squish their fingers as they're hanging on the cliff. ah ha ha how funny it is! if i imagine how they feel and it's hurting them, i stop immediately. if i don't and i consider from a T perspective whether or not their opinions are valid, reasonable, intelligent as perceived by me, i get angry and want to stomp out bad ideas polluting our air. goddammit, really? foxnews? ahhhhh

    yet i can be awed and in love with the depth of their convictions. if you play the authenticity game you should be spiraling in circles and chasing your own tail like ouroboros. it is a game with no beginning and no end. i respect the idealism that goes to bat for such a warlike profession, but to get all salinger-y "it's better to live humbly for a cause than to die a martyr for one." i don't know if i even believe that, or if i believe anything. where to start, or to just keep going.

    communication is a clusterfuck of what ifs and maybe sos and so close allllllmosts. the more complex you allow your image of self to become, the less you know and the more you just to try to take in the swing of things.

    with that said, being totally open (read: embracing), filled with faith and conviction, so earnest, etc- it's admirable and very healing on a personal level for others.

  9. #39
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    if you play the authenticity game you should be spiraling in circles and chasing your own tail like ouroboros.
    Above poster, I get what you're saying..

    I think there's a difference between playing around and authenticity. I like different types of humor, but I'll usually always be me no matter what.

    If someone says, "does this dress or outfit look good on me?" I'll say yes or no, regardless if they like my answer or not. If they cannot handle it, then oh well, why ask? Btw, I wouldn't ever say it in a mean way to hurt someone's ego or self-esteem.. I CAN however, fight back and throw it back in their face if they treat me in that way.. so in that sense, I'm still keepin it 'real' by being true to myself.

    It's also difficult to get a compliment out of me. I'll only say things if I mean it- I CANNOT, REFUSE to say stuff I don't mean. Sorry.

    I think authenticity is most important for those who know themselves really well? Really depends on our values as well? *blush*

  10. #40
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    to me it comes down to people who feel extremely tied to certain ideals/images of thought that they use to define themselves can hold to those more fixedly than people who do not. they have a stronger idea of what they're supposed to be based on their preconceptions and holding their actions firmly in place against these ideal.

    i do not find this a compelling definition of authenticity, it only means you do not critique and change your values as frequently as others do. i'm a shape-shifter, bc most of the ideals i've had i've realized have been built largely out of falsehoods i no longer support.

    the world is complex and the more open to change you are the more you have to work to continuously integrate the different surfaces of your self that arise. or you have to let go of the notion that you will ever be able to catch yourself, hold yourself fixedly in place, when what the world is made of is flux.

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