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  1. #21
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Well, NFs, it seems like you're having an NT invasion, and we're demanding quantitative means of measuring integrity.

    When you speak of integrity... let's say a man is working himself to death. He doesn't know it yet, but he's feeling the strain of work and his health is slowly deteriorating. Of course he can certainly feel this, but he cannot pull this into perspective. He feels sick, but he feels little gauge over how sick he's becoming.

    One night, his wife notices that there's something wrong. Her husband has been acting strangely for the past few days, and now he's even tireder than usual. She asks, "Is there anything wrong?" Of course he replies, "No, nothing." And they both continue on with life the next day.

    Well, he lied. Of course there's something wrong. He even knows that there's something wrong, but he refused to say anything about it. Of course, it was concerning his health and his body, which are more or less a private matter. Nonetheless, it doesn't change that he has lied. Is this a breach of integrity?

  2. #22
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say my thoughts on the matter.

    My expressions are quite transparent. It's very easy to tell when I'm upset, I think you're an idiot, or I'm in total bliss. This is why I never play poker.

    Unfortunately these expressions often do not relate to the real world. They relate to whatever's going on in my head at that moment. Many people will think that there's something wrong with whatever's there at the current time when really there is not. Often I won't care to explain anything because 1) I know that they won't like it, 2) they won't understand it because it has nothing to do with anything at the present time or 3) by the time I finish explaining whatever I was thinking about in full, I would have already wasted about an hour of which I could be doing better, more productive things with my time.

    Integrity is great and all but I often find myself remaining silent because there are some things that other people simply don't need to know. They may be lies through exclusion, but they're lies because whatever it is does not concern you, you needn't worry about it, and any explanation would be much more trouble than it's worth.

    Now, NFs, does this make me a bad person? Does this make me artificial, fake, or shallow?
    Do you like people? Do you desire human connection? Do you have any mentors, or close family or friends that you *admire* or respect?

    You seem to exhibit somewhat of a detached omniscience. You are undoubtedly an *incredibly* intelligent person. I wonder however, do you value your intellect/insight? Do you value intellect/insight in others? Are you looking to be understood, or challenged? Taught? Or simple listened to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Well, NFs, it seems like you're having an NT invasion, and we're demanding quantitative means of measuring integrity.

    When you speak of integrity... let's say a man is working himself to death. He doesn't know it yet, but he's feeling the strain of work and his health is slowly deteriorating. Of course he can certainly feel this, but he cannot pull this into perspective. He feels sick, but he feels little gauge over how sick he's becoming.

    One night, his wife notices that there's something wrong. Her husband has been acting strangely for the past few days, and now he's even tireder than usual. She asks, "Is there anything wrong?" Of course he replies, "No, nothing." And they both continue on with life the next day.

    Well, he lied. Of course there's something wrong. He even knows that there's something wrong, but he refused to say anything about it. Of course, it was concerning his health and his body, which are more or less a private matter. Nonetheless, it doesn't change that he has lied. Is this a breach of integrity?
    Yes. The point of communication is to bridge the existential divide that lies between each and every *one* of us. I am not you, you are not me. If you want to get to *know* me, and if I am to get to *know* you, integrity in communication is key. And by*know* I mean get to know all the internal processes that are more or less hidden from the "observable" world.

    I can't see your brain or read your thoughts, tell me what you think, and tell me how you feel, words are an effective tool in "materializing" the abstract.

    Language is a remarkable tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Well, NFs, it seems like you're having an NT invasion, and we're demanding quantitative means of measuring integrity.

    When you speak of integrity... let's say a man is working himself to death. He doesn't know it yet, but he's feeling the strain of work and his health is slowly deteriorating. Of course he can certainly feel this, but he cannot pull this into perspective. He feels sick, but he feels little gauge over how sick he's becoming.

    One night, his wife notices that there's something wrong. Her husband has been acting strangely for the past few days, and now he's even tireder than usual. She asks, "Is there anything wrong?" Of course he replies, "No, nothing." And they both continue on with life the next day.

    Well, he lied. Of course there's something wrong. He even knows that there's something wrong, but he refused to say anything about it. Of course, it was concerning his health and his body, which are more or less a private matter. Nonetheless, it doesn't change that he has lied. Is this a breach of integrity?
    Yes.

    The point of communication is to bridge the existential divide that lies between each and every *one* of us. I am not you, you are not me. If you want to get to *know* me, and if you want me to get to *know* you, integrity in communication is key. And by *know* I mean get to know all the internal processes that are more or less hidden from the "observable" world.

    I can't see your brain or read your thoughts, so tell me what you think, and tell me how you feel! If you want to be understood/cared for/"seen", then make yourself known.

    Ne tangent: Words are an effective tool in "materializing" the abstract.
    Last edited by ThatsWhatHeSaid; 04-29-2008 at 12:32 AM. Reason: merged posts
    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #23
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    I can identify with all of this. I have very low tolerance for phoniness, whether talking or simply being and reacting. Unlocking authenticity isn't unique to NFs. It's unique to all humans who get sucked into compromising themselves. How to get back without being phoney, I've found, is tricky.

  4. #24
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I can identify with all of this. I have very low tolerance for phoniness, whether talking or simply being and reacting. Unlocking authenticity isn't unique to NFs. It's unique to all humans who get sucked into compromising themselves. How to get back without being phoney, I've found, is tricky.
    I agree that the search for authenticity is not unique to NFs. I believe many people try to find and understand their true selves.

    At least in solitude you have the comfort of having, and being in, the company of yourself.

    Self-awareness is a process, never a "product". The more aware you become of yourself, the more self there is to become aware of.

    The more you know the less you know.

    Bleh.

    So, like what's going on with Brangelina????
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #25
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    You know this is interesting, and hell it's so quiet here, I'll bite.

    Yes, it's true that valuing authenticity is not type specific and something many of us silly humans seek.

    However, I think you can make a few generalizations and the concept of NT 'truth' is a little different from the NF concept of 'authenticity' or even the SP concept of 'being in the moment' or SJ 'appropriateness'? (Okay I'm still fuzzy where SJ falls in this but I'm firm on the others)

    I think NF's are very good at intuitively 'getting' people (some NF's more than others of course) and understanding motivations and agendas -- sometimes better than the people themselves. Sometimes to an uncanny level. And for each NF type - INFJ, INFP, ENFP, ENFJ -- the way they 'get' people or value authenticity is very different.

    Of course, regardless of type, it's possible to jump to conclusions or project your own standards and what's normal for you onto other people.

    I think when it comes to 'authenticity', there are so many ways to be in the world the question of authenticity is -- are you being REAL to yourself in the way you are presenting yourself. If you have a very limited or strict definition of 'authentic' then instead of seeking out truth, you end up obscuring it.

    I've noticed some comments by NT's on this forum equating emotions with fakeness? And then they wonder why people call them robots. Yes, it's a point of frustration with me b/c how many times and ways do you need to tell someone 'you have made me angry' before they 'believe' you? Or it's like you have to write out a mathematical equation 'proving' that 1) you really are angry and 2) you anger is 'correct'.

    And I'm sorry, but if you are uncomfortable and not very good at dealing with with emotions -- your own, other peoples, emotional displays in general, then where in the world do you get the idea that you're somehow qualified to 'judge' the 'authenticity' or 'value' of other people's emotional expression?

    See, my valuing of authenticity is to be true to yourself and be HONEST with other people.

    The one thing that pisses me off to no end is when people are so stuck inside themselves that they hide behind all this rationalizing, deflection, and bs instead of just coming out honestly and saying what they mean, what they feel, and why. Or just get so 'freaked out' by someone's responses to them they go on self-defense mode or attack. Sure, they're acting instinctively (?) but they aren't allowing themselves to be 'authentic' -- they're stuck and they are possibly invalidating someone who IS being authentic.

    I've completely lost my train of the thought. Maybe I'll finish it later.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  6. #26
    Junior Member sunnyraining's Avatar
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    I think also that we're putting blanket generalisations on everything (something I do a lot as well ). Whilst I, as an INFJ, value the virtues of sincerity and authenticity (in words, emotions and actions) in people, I understand that dependant upon the situation or circumstance these may not surface ... and sometimes for good reason.

    Sometimes I believe tact is called for, eg. to avoid conflict. The cruncher is that your own expectations of authenticity or "phoniness" are also thrown in. So in response to the OP, being a knight who is sworn never to lie is a worthy goal but a very difficult one in today's world (and I imagine also very difficult in their times as well). But the approach a wise knight takes is very different from that of one who only follows doctrines and dogmas. That is, the truth is a weapon of his ... it may be bent, melded, wielded to suit his heart.

    And I might add the oath medical students swear by : "to do no harm."

  7. #27
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Do you like people? Do you desire human connection? Do you have any mentors, or close family or friends that you *admire* or respect?

    You seem to exhibit somewhat of a detached omniscience. You are undoubtedly an *incredibly* intelligent person. I wonder however, do you value your intellect/insight? Do you value intellect/insight in others? Are you looking to be understood, or challenged? Taught? Or simple listened to?

    Yes. The point of communication is to bridge the existential divide that lies between each and every *one* of us. I am not you, you are not me. If you want to get to *know* me, and if I am to get to *know* you, integrity in communication is key. And by*know* I mean get to know all the internal processes that are more or less hidden from the "observable" world.

    I can't see your brain or read your thoughts, tell me what you think, and tell me how you feel, words are an effective tool in "materializing" the abstract.

    Language is a remarkable tool.

    Ne tangent: Words are an effective tool in "materializing" the abstract.
    I want so desperately to 'get' other people but it doesn't work very well at all.

    But often there are such little things in the world that other people don't need to know about. My plans for scheduling one day, what I'm going to write in a little while. But because these are things that I'm thinking of, people immediately want to KNOW -- if I had gotten a penny for every thought that had been pried out of me with force, I'd be very, very wealthy.

    A lot of what I say has a humanitarian edge on it, but that doesn't change that I want people to be healthy and happy and then just shut up most of the time. Honestly, all throughout childhood, I honestly couldn't point out an 'idol' like most people could, and I'd always thought that the whole idea of role models and whatnot was stupid. I never said this, of course (is that a breach of integrity?). There are quite a few people that I respect, but I also know that they've done stupid things for both themselves and for me. I find it difficult to admire people themselves and a lot easier to admire qualities I see. People (and yes, I'm definitely there) are generally falliable and need to be monitored. And that's, well, one of the reasons that humans are social animals.

    At this point I just want to understand. I'm not seeking to exert my influence on the world at the moment. Usually when I speak I'm expressing a want or need, taken from information about things I 'understand.' It'll probably be later when I understand the whole 'human race' thing that I'll want to say something more. NFs, you get this more than I do. Just try to explain!

    The point is... I'm not too interested in niceties but I like when people speak up because something's wrong. However, in the situation I outlined, the "no, nothing's wrong," actually translates into "I can handle myself" or "I don't know," either of which answers would likely freak the wife out. But, instead, he stuck to the answer that would cause the least trouble. It would be the husband's responsibility, then, to tell his wife what's going on once he's truly figured it out.

    'Ne' is materializing the links, while 'Ni' says that words are liars. Ne would show all the neat things it's created from the data while Ni would sit and stare and wonder whether any of it was true or not, or what exactly was meant from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I've noticed some comments by NT's on this forum equating emotions with fakeness? And then they wonder why people call them robots. Yes, it's a point of frustration with me b/c how many times and ways do you need to tell someone 'you have made me angry' before they 'believe' you? Or it's like you have to write out a mathematical equation 'proving' that 1) you really are angry and 2) you anger is 'correct'.

    And I'm sorry, but if you are uncomfortable and not very good at dealing with with emotions -- your own, other peoples, emotional displays in general, then where in the world do you get the idea that you're somehow qualified to 'judge' the 'authenticity' or 'value' of other people's emotional expression?

    See, my valuing of authenticity is to be true to yourself and be HONEST with other people.

    The one thing that pisses me off to no end is when people are so stuck inside themselves that they hide behind all this rationalizing, deflection, and bs instead of just coming out honestly and saying what they mean, what they feel, and why. Or just get so 'freaked out' by someone's responses to them they go on self-defense mode or attack. Sure, they're acting instinctively (?) but they aren't allowing themselves to be 'authentic' -- they're stuck and they are possibly invalidating someone who IS being authentic.

    I've completely lost my train of the thought. Maybe I'll finish it later.
    We NTs are trying to understand. I don't know about Sriv here, but I'm trying to eke out some practical use out of this and become better at that whole 'feeling' thing.

    The question I'm asking, well, is if you want desperately to punch someone in the face, then do you do it, or do you restrain yourself? Of course, in an ideal world, one would not be angry to this point, or one would reason out differences and whatever in a reasonable manner, but sometimes the decision of what to do has to be simple, split-second one and in this case the discussion of that 'I love authenticity!' is useless and needs to be pushed aside for what's practical and which would most preserve integrity and be 'authentic.'

    Now, if you replace the 'punch someone in the face' with 'go on a verbal rant,' would the outcome be any different?

    We can all talk about how we love authenticity and integrity until the cows come home, but it's not going to equate into any sustainable advice. I know 'be true to yourself' is a nice sentiment, but sometimes you just can't get away with it. Well, maybe you NF types can get away with it and I can't. And that's not fair, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it. Will you help me, or not?

  8. #28
    Junior Member sunnyraining's Avatar
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    To Haphazard: I understand where you're getting at - I think you're talking about tact in handling situations involving the struggle against being authentic and also the rationality behind it all (are you?).

    I think my best answer to you will would be to answer your scenario. The answer is no - if you replaced punch someone with verbal ranting, the outcome concerning authenticity would not be different. Whether you punch the person or restrain yourself, I think you're being authentic either way if you know why you performed in such way (a bit confusing...I'll try to explain)

    If you punch the person - the most forthright action - a result of your feelings: it can be seen as authentic following the thought of what caused you to feel angry.

    If you don't and restrain yourself - the diplomatic, tactful action - a result of your logical reasoning: Although may seem insincere to youself, can also be seen as authentic to your rational side/authentic to the side of you that wants everybody to feel happy :P.

    Notice how I haven't discussed the consequences. Authenticity is fluid and somewhat subjective which is all well and good but the consequences are another matter entirely which is what I think the crux of this discussion should be about.

    I understand I'm not really answering this but sending you around in a wheel but my advice would be the action that has the most favourable outcome to all parties your heart (whether it be high ideals eg. compassion or just plain passion eg. anger) and brain (eg. consequences, tact) in the picture as well (but for that you need to 'know thyself' first).

    Hope you can make sense of that...

  9. #29
    Member Electric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I've noticed some comments by NT's on this forum equating emotions with fakeness? And then they wonder why people call them robots. Yes, it's a point of frustration with me b/c how many times and ways do you need to tell someone 'you have made me angry' before they 'believe' you? Or it's like you have to write out a mathematical equation 'proving' that 1) you really are angry and 2) you anger is 'correct'.
    Well since you put it that way, NTs do seems emotionally retarded. But if you look at it from a perspective, most feelings expressed are conformistic and do seem a little fake. I rarely participate in it if it isn't backed up by a strong Fi or vice-versa. I mainly express feelings(passion) through my works which is largely hidden. So, it may look like I'm a robot. I think this is the thing with NTs. Many would express their feelings through their projects rather than to use it to agree with others.
    If you look at that old OCEAN theory, I bet realistically most NFs are high on agreeableness while NTs are low on that. Scientist do have to disagree with other people's truth to bring out the real truth. Also, it is almost impossible in a debate between two scientist to "show each other the light".

    I never have a problem discerning anger so I'm obfuscated by your comment that NTs need a math formula for it. You know, not all NTs are math or reading based, but it's quite a funny stereotype anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    We can all talk about how we love authenticity and integrity until the cows come home, but it's not going to equate into any sustainable advice. I know 'be true to yourself' is a nice sentiment, but sometimes you just can't get away with it. Well, maybe you NF types can get away with it and I can't. And that's not fair, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it. Will you help me, or not?
    NT's have a different concept of true self. This is why you don't get the NF's version.

  10. #30
    Senior Member batumi's Avatar
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    Phoney, shallow, yes......but what I really despise is hypocrisy.

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