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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    Their expectations you learned, were ad nauseum where the finish line for you in their expectations of you was always moving and never satisfied.
    yes, but again it was really an issue at the worst and most stressful times, and i think it sort of works for INFJs the other way around: when things are bad and Ni clarity is hard to come by, they aren't always aware of why they aren't happy, and since responsibility-taking can be scarce for those of them that have yet to develop their Ti to balanced point (since subjectively "they are always right"), they look for someone to blame, and the closest person to them is usually the easiest target. reverting to their shadow functions, their shadow-Ne pushes them to explore the reason why they aren't happy, so they blame you in one way, you satisfy it, they still are unhappy and blame you for another way, and by the time you satisfy it they need to find another reason. if you love them and want to make them happy, this will most likely be a torturous experience, and by the time you stand up for yourself, your reactions will be blacklisted under their shadow-Fi, bring them to doubt your very character and push you away.

    i think that's a time where you need the most to "not listen" to your mind or hers, take it as a symptom and not as a blame, instead calm down and look what to fix in your combined life first, then see if the problem remains. i wish i knew that back then though.

    ofcourse, in the ENTP unhealthy state we're 10 times worst (let's face it we can get annoying as fuck - sometimes i wouldn't want to be around me).. nobody looks particularly good in such states, but this thread is about living with INFJs so... i can totally get out of describing faults i relate too :p

  2. #22
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yes, but again it was really an issue at the worst and most stressful times, and i think it sort of works for INFJs the other way around: when things are bad and Ni clarity is hard to come by, they aren't always aware of why they aren't happy, and since responsibility-taking can be scarce for those of them that have yet to develop their Ti to balanced point (since subjectively "they are always right"), they look for someone to blame, and the closest person to them is usually the easiest target. reverting to their shadow functions, their shadow-Ne pushes them to explore the reason why they aren't happy, so they blame you in one way, you satisfy it, they still are unhappy and blame you for another way, and by the time you satisfy it they need to find another reason. if you love them and want to make them happy, this will most likely be a torturous experience, and by the time you stand up for yourself, your reactions will be blacklisted under their shadow-Fi, bring them to doubt your very character and push you away.

    i think that's a time where you need the most to "not listen" to your mind or hers, take it as a symptom and not as a blame, instead calm down and look what to fix in your combined life first, then see if the problem remains. i wish i knew that back then though.

    ofcourse, in the ENTP unhealthy state we're 10 times worst, hell nobody looks particularly good in such states, but this thread is about living with INFJs so... i can totally get out of describing my faults :p
    This is really an interesting evaluation. Great, detailed breakdown of functional analysis. I see you must be a genius. Seriously.

    Yes. It is torture. Which is why I refuse to do it again. And now I have boundaries which are conveyed.

    I appreciate all types of people. And at the same time, for you and for anyone, people could use their two eyes and ears they have been given. And carefully pay attention to their own behavior.

    A lot of this awareness of unruly behavior is just common sense. It flies in the face of simple, understandable decency.

    I set the example turning the other cheek throughout the relationship for many months. When something was unsure, and when I got 'cleaned', I asked questions and sought clarity. Just more complaints and insults. I don't remember being given just, even one constructive description in order to gain some understanding. It's as though there was the hope that I'd get destroyed or something. Looking back, it was almost completely fucked.

    How someone cannot witness the consistent kindness and turning the other cheek out of love is, I don't know. I would have noticed. I couldn't have denied myself the voice inside that says 'They're not fighting back. Maybe it's love. And maybe I ought to appreciate love that showed up at my doorstep'.

    Who knows.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    When something was unsure, and when I got 'cleaned', I asked questions and sought clarity. Just more complaints and insults.
    i think that's the thing i described in earlier posts...

    basically its sort of like this: ask an ENTP child why is he crying, and then tell him that the broken toy he is crying about can easily be repaired, and that he has no reason to be sad, and he'll stop crying, you took the reason to cry away. but tell that to an INFJ child, and you just blamed his sadness for not having any good reasons.

    from your perspective, you where just digging for the truth so you can better solve the problem, from her perspective, you where questioning, breaking down and coldly butchering her truth, arguing with her emotions.

    warning: i'm going to be a bit of an asshole, but if it's any consolation, i am trying to be an asshole in the good way...
    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    Yes. It is torture. Which is why I refuse to do it again.
    i'll wager that it isn't - and at the risk of projecting - i'd wager that the real reason is that you have a hard time accepting things that you can't do, mountains that you can't climb, oceans that you can't swim, and right now the part of you that wants her back is feeling helpless, whenever you think of her your lethal combination of missing her while resenting her is pushing your brain out of your ears, so just at those times where you really need it right now, you really need to be your good old self, just then there's no opportunity in sight, no brilliant ideas, no creative solutions, there's a hole in the road, and you - who always find a way - has no idea how to fix it and can't find a path to go around it. and the only way for you to accept that is to tell yourself you don't want her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    And now I have boundaries which are conveyed.
    ...i saw where you got that from, and as i said there.. there's always other options.

  4. #24
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    basically its sort of like this: ask an ENTP child why is he crying, and then tell him that the broken toy he is crying about can easily be repaired, and that he has no reason to be sad, and he'll stop crying, you took the reason to cry away. but tell that to an INFJ child, and you just blamed his sadness for not having any good reasons.[/URL]
    This doesn't make sense to me. I'd gladly love the reason for my crying being solved for me so that I can cease being upset and can move forward!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #25
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Any survival tips? Are we already doomed?

    If you (as an INFJ or NF) would move in with an ISTJ (or SJ), what would be the most likely reason for it not to work? What irritates you about us?

    As we are both I and J, we both acknowledge each other's need for quiet and stable time at home (= no guys @ 11pm coming to watch a football match without a notice).

    But what about me being a ST and she being NF? I already noticed I'm way more pragmatic than she is...
    It sounds like you two are in a healthy, communicative relationship and you're both committed to one another and are willing to work through (and prioritize working through) things, so I would say just continue on that path of open communication, don't let resentment build up, stuff like that.

    Re. specifics of what might annoy her? I really don't know!! This can be quite unique based on individuals. But growing up with ISxJ parents, I'd say what peeved me most about them was when I'd start talking about things, and they'd hone in on the most bizarre details which I found absolutely irrelevant and which detracted from my main point, so I always felt they weren't even grasping the 'point' of what I was trying to convey...so I became more reticent to share. But, given that you two are where you're at... I'm guessing this isn't much of an issue and you already have a pretty good understanding of one another.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #26
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Any survival tips? Are we already doomed?

    If you (as an INFJ or NF) would move in with an ISTJ (or SJ), what would be the most likely reason for it not to work? What irritates you about us?

    As we are both I and J, we both acknowledge each other's need for quiet and stable time at home (= no guys @ 11pm coming to watch a football match without a notice).

    But what about me being a ST and she being NF? I already noticed I'm way more pragmatic than she is...
    That's the challenge IMO. I think you'll be off to a great start if you can just bear in mind that she's probably a big-picture thinker. If so, she might be playing the long game in life. That is, she likely has a broad idea of what she wants out of life and if so, her decision making process will take that into account. She might be moving towards realizing her vision at a much slower pace because there are more pieces of the puzzle to fit together. And you might be more attuned to what makes sense in the day to day, moving more rapidly than she does.

    But if that's the case, her dreams are likely to stay unfulfilled while the things you want materialize. I'd just say be sure to help her realize her dreams. And definitely do not crush her just because things don't make sense to you in the moment. I think there is a type of INFJ that is very imaginative and a great dreamer. But they can see the value of a pragmatic approach as well. That type can sometimes let their vision buckle under the weight of someone else's criticism. That will eventually make for an unhappy INFJ. If any of this seems likely, just be sure to let her fulfill her own potential as well.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    That's the challenge IMO. I think you'll be off to a great start if you can just bear in mind that she's probably a big-picture thinker. If so, she might be playing the long game in life. That is, she likely has a broad idea of what she wants out of life and if so, her decision making process will take that into account. She might be moving towards realizing her vision at a much slower pace because there are more pieces of the puzzle to fit together. And you might be more attuned to what makes sense in the day to day, moving more rapidly than she does.

    But if that's the case, her dreams are likely to stay unfulfilled while the things you want materialize. I'd just say be sure to help her realize her dreams. And definitely do not crush her just because things don't make sense to you in the moment. I think there is a type of INFJ that is very imaginative and a great dreamer. But they can see the value of a pragmatic approach as well. That type can sometimes let their vision buckle under the weight of someone else's criticism. That will eventually make for an unhappy INFJ. If any of this seems likely, just be sure to let her fulfill her own potential as well.

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  8. #28
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    My dad is an ISTJ. He keeps his feelings tucked very securely away. I think part of that has to do with a reaction to his childhood environment, but it makes it hard to be close to him, even though I am assured that he loves me and is proud of me, and I love him. With a parent-child relationship, it is fine. If it were a romantic relationship, I think after awhile it would be very frustrating and unfufilling, unless I saw that the other person was aware of the problem and was making some efforts to meet me in the middle.

    I have also been in a 5 year relationship with an ESTJ. In both cases, I appreciated the STJ sense of practical day to day stuff. They were good at filling in details of my big picture ideas (it wouldn't occur to me before organizing a big music event to check that we had extra extension cords etc, even though once it was pointed out to me, I would understand the human impact of not having what we needed and make great efforts in the future. I just wouldn't see it myself.). I liked the way the notice the things in their environment that I am pretty oblivious to.

    In a relationship, I can see the lack of communication (particular when the INFJ senses something is truly wrong and you are responding by withdrawing) being the ultimate issue. Therefore, if you are dealing with something, you could alleviate problems on both ends greatly by being willing to articulate what you can, and offer some ideas to the INFJ for what would be helpful. Otherwise they will fill in the blanks with their best guesses (which can by annoying inaccurate), or start hovering in a frustrating, insecure sort of way, because they have a huge aversion to emotional surprises and don't know if it's a problem between you to be pursued, or if it is quite unrelated (in which case they need to be given a way to be the most helpful and loving to you). They tend to seek someone out when they are unhappy, and so when you don't, it can be interpreted that you don't trust them, or that you don't consider them to be the person you'd turn to if they had to pick someone. That can be hard for them to deal with unless they have enough context to realize that your process for solving problems is extremely different.

    Your INFJ may assume that since you don't seem upset and since you sound definite about things, that you are not requesting their help. They may even feel that you don't need them, especially if you are very competent and don't choose to turn to them to fill in the areas where you may need their skills. They need to know why they are needed by you, so that they can feel effective in supplying what you value. They also may not realize that Te sounds definite, but may actually be requesting advice or a mirror to check their reasoning, just as Fe users often don't realize that statements they make may be taken as definitive statements, rather than running something by for someone they trust to check over. I remember my ESTJ getting rather frustrated at me after he had tossed around several possibilities for what to do with the inheritance from his parents, because he thought it was obvious he was requesting my opinion, while I thought I was being respectful in not offering one when he had clearly decided what was right to do and we were not sharing money!

    Resolving conflict is one of the hugest communication issues I have found in interacting with STJs. They seem to feel that as long as it is not being talked about and there are no external signs of strife, all is well. This is a huge mistake, especially with INFJs. The issue will not go away until it is laid to rest. They may even need to revisit things several times, which may be frustrating to you. Just realize that it is not about accusing you, but rather that there is a problem that they need your help resolving and that you are doing a huge service in getting them to the resolving stage, simply by listening without offering opinions and solutions until they are ready. They may comply with your preferred method for a time, but resentment will build and larger parts of their inner self will be walled off to you. Even if you don't feel sure of your way, opening up the topic for discussion, rather than avoiding it or just helping out extra around the house will win you trust and points like you wouldn't believe. Asking question that get your INFJ to talk more about what's bothering them will not only burn out their frustration sooner, but will also give you more information and context to work with. Stifling their venting is like adding gasoline to a fire that they are already distressed about and embarrassed of.

    The INFJ Common Issues thread may cover some others - I'm not sure. Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things.

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