[NF] NF's Fencing between Fe and Fi

[Crescent Fresh]

Lately I felt so lost about myself and my type. I've always felt like I'm an INFJ once I kept getting tested consistently as one. At the same time, I felt relieved that I'm not at odds with my personality as I've found many other INFJs around who share my traits.

Eventually, however, I felt more confused of my type as I can really related to the struggles among Fi users, particularly from this thread

I felt there are elements where I can strongly related to Fe's universal view of social graces, while I also appreciate Fi's filtering for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in.

I'm not sure if this has to do with my scores on the top 4 cognitive functions as they all share excellent use among the 8 functions: Fe (42.3), Ni (38.2), Fi (37), Te (30.9) - which lately I got tested as an ENFJ.

I just wonder if there are any NFs out there who experiences the same struggle that I'm having right now?

 

[Giggly]

I'm SF and I experience this. It's really confusing. It makes me not believe there is much difference between the two.

 

[SilkRoad]

I'm just speculating/rambling here; I know I have very high Fe scores on function tests, but I can't remember how high my Fi scores would be. But I wonder if someone who is a very "strong Feeler" is likely to have high scores on both and relate to both quite strongly. I know that there are a lot of INFJs who relate to INTJ more so than to any other type. While I think I came across more INTJ when younger, partly due to family influences, I have never had a T score on any MBTI test in the last several years (basically since I've really been into MBTI). I couldn't be much more of a Feeler.

I am not sure how much I relate to Fi. I have found it difficult to grasp. I am certainly attached to social conventions and niceties, not for their own sake, but because I feel that they smooth the way and make things more pleasant and easier for essentials like personal development and self-expression. (Not how a lot of people perceive Fe, I know.) But I suppose I might relate to Fi in that (for instance) I get upset if I'm in the middle of a difficult emotional situation and someone says "what is the point in getting so upset over this? I only had feelings like the ones you're describing when I was going through my divorce!" (yeah, someone actually said that to me and I didn't appreciate it - I've been a lot more guarded about my feelings with this person ever since ). Because of this remark, I felt silly and invalidated, as though I was a flawed person for being very upset over a situation that the other person didn't feel should be all that upsetting. But is that Fi? Not sure.

 

[Fidelia]

I also wonder if enneagram type influences this. I've found that e4 people seem to fit some of the Fi mold more than e1 or e5 INFJs. Might just be me though, don't know...

 

[Crescent Fresh]

I am not sure how much I relate to Fi. I have found it difficult to grasp. I am certainly attached to social conventions and niceties, not for their own sake, but because I feel that they smooth the way and make things more pleasant and easier for essentials like personal development and self-expression. (Not how a lot of people perceive Fe, I know.) But I suppose I might relate to Fi in that (for instance) I get upset if I'm in the middle of a difficult emotional situation and someone says "what is the point in getting so upset over this? I only had feelings like the ones you're describing when I was going through my divorce!" (yeah, someone actually said that to me and I didn't appreciate it - I've been a lot more guarded about my feelings with this person ever since ). Because of this remark, I felt silly and invalidated, as though I was a flawed person for being very upset over a situation that the other person didn't feel should be all that upsetting. But is that Fi? Not sure.

I got your point here. I tend to feel that I do play by the societal rules and really dislike having unnecessary conflicts. Yet, whenever I felt really upset, it has more to do with crossing my Fi ethics, more so than Fe. I tend to be able to overlook when the Fe's convention codes of conducts are attacked by others by trying to keep my patience. Though I almost have zero patience to unleash my anger whenever I felt invalidation of my Fi and that's when I take things really personally.

I also wonder if enneagram type influences this. I've found that e4 people seem to fit some of the Fi mold more than e1 or e5 INFJs. Might just be me though, don't know...

I'm tested as 4w5 (and 4w3 in the past) but I can see myself fitting in e4. So perhaps there's a pattern in this...

 

[Southern Kross]

Someone around here once said something that stuck with me. It was along the lines of, "NFPs and NFJs are people that think in very different ways but frequently reach similar conclusions". It's like we take different paths but end up in the same place a lot of the time.

 

[SilkRoad]

Someone around here once said something that stuck with me. It was along the lines of, "NFPs and NFJs are people that think in very different ways but frequently reach similar conclusions". It's like we take different paths but end up in the same place a lot of the time.

Yes! There often seem to be many misunderstandings along the way, so sometimes I wonder if we should just curtail all the discussion, and just share our findings...

 

[skylights]

Someone around here once said something that stuck with me. It was along the lines of, "NFPs and NFJs are people that think in very different ways but frequently reach similar conclusions". It's like we take different paths but end up in the same place a lot of the time.

i definitely agree with that. from my experiences with my ENFJ friend, we often both wind up at the same conclusion, despite essentially opposite thought paths.

like silkroad pointed out, often a strong feeler will have strong scores on both F functions, in particular if you are EFP or IFJ because of the (extravert + introverted feeling) or (introvert + extraverted feeling) combinations.

personally, i usually test relatively high on Fe. as fidelia pointed out, could be the influence of e6 - there is definitely a social awareness that comes with the type - in addition to the extravert with feeling combo. i would not be surprised if you as an e4 associated more strongly with Fi, since there is that authenticity-of-emotion overlap.

Yet, whenever I felt really upset, it has more to do with crossing my Fi ethics, more so than Fe. I tend to be able to overlook when the Fe's convention codes of conducts are attacked by others by trying to keep my patience. Though I almost have zero patience to unleash my anger whenever I felt invalidation of my Fi and that's when I take things really personally.

i know there are people out there who do not believe in an individual's usage of all 8 functions, but i do ("conveyor belts" of N/S T/F, if you will) and i think that the reason all people have access to Fi usage is precisely to protect the inner ethical self. so to me, it's unsurprising that you would feel this. my ESFJ SO will express feelings like this too, despite not having Fi as a primary function. he also feels the same self-protective anger when personal dignity is violated. i think it's a universal human experience.

 

[INTP]

That doesent sound like you are using Fi, Ni and Ti can do the same thing when dealing with Fe judgments. And no it doesent have anything to do with cognitive function scores, those cognitive function tests are flawed in so many ways that they arent really worth looking at all unless you know in what ways they are flawed and are able to look at the scores as not absolute truths or even strenghts of the functions, but like for INFJ Fi is usually Fe + Ti or Fe + Ni and understand that the questions that the scores are gathered are flawed from the beginning, so even looking at the scotes that way wont tell you anything that you wouldnt already know(as understanding the scores need self reflection to begin with)..

 

[gandalf]

I don't know if this helps but I as an INTJ am experiencing something similar when it comes to Ti and Te.

Sometimes when I get an idea out of nothing given by Ni, I end up struggling to decide if I should hand that idea to Ti or Te for handling. Giving it to Ti means idealizing and perfecting the idea as far as I can take it, often with the result that what comes out is either impractical or simply too late to be implemented. Theoretical perfection wins, practicality loses. Giving it to Te instead means coming up with a way to really implement the idea soon and practically enough to actually see at least a part of it being actually utilized in the real world. Practicality wins, theoretical perfection loses.

My assumption would be that Fi and Fe work the same way. Fi would be about idealizing things and taking the risk that the will be no-one to share them with. Fe, on the other hand, would be about actually connecting with people while taking the risk that the perfection is compromised.

 

[INTP]

I don't know if this helps but I as an INTJ am experiencing something similar when it comes to Ti and Te.

Sometimes when I get an idea out of nothing given by Ni, I end up struggling to decide if I should hand that idea to Ti or Te for handling. Giving it to Ti means idealizing and perfecting the idea as far as I can take it, often with the result that what comes out is either impractical or simply too late to be implemented. Theoretical perfection wins, practicality loses. Giving it to Te instead means coming up with a way to really implement the idea soon and practically enough to actually see at least a part of it being actually utilized in the real world. Practicality wins, theoretical perfection loses.

My assumption would be that Fi and Fe work the same way. Fi would be about idealizing things and taking the risk that the will be no-one to share them with. Fe, on the other hand, would be about actually connecting with people while taking the risk that the perfection is compromised.

You dont have Ti if you are an INTJ and INFJ doesent have Fi..

 

[gandalf]

You dont have Ti if you are an INTJ and INFJ doesent have Fi..

I think that's pretty much the extreme of a Ti comment as far as my post you cited is considered

I remember your critic about the cognitive function test and I do agree to some extent but regardless of that, that test claims me to have Ti practically equal with Te.

 

[Fidelia]

I've wondered about those function tests before. I think part of the reason results come out that way is that we are more aware of the functions that are less dominant. Therefore, I'm more aware of using my tertiary function than I am aware of using Ni or even Fe.

Perhaps also, other life experiences have a way of rounding us out so that we can appreciate certain functions differently, but I'm not sure if that necessarily means that those functions are an inate part of our thought patterns and overall approach to life.

 

[Elfboy]

ENFP with TERRIBLE Fe reporting

 

[Such Irony]

I'm just speculating/rambling here; I know I have very high Fe scores on function tests, but I can't remember how high my Fi scores would be. But I wonder if someone who is a very "strong Feeler" is likely to have high scores on both and relate to both quite strongly. I know that there are a lot of INFJs who relate to INTJ more so than to any other type. While I think I came across more INTJ when younger, partly due to family influences, I have never had a T score on any MBTI test in the last several years (basically since I've really been into MBTI). I couldn't be much more of a Feeler.

I am not sure how much I relate to Fi. I have found it difficult to grasp. I am certainly attached to social conventions and niceties, not for their own sake, but because I feel that they smooth the way and make things more pleasant and easier for essentials like personal development and self-expression. (Not how a lot of people perceive Fe, I know.) But I suppose I might relate to Fi in that (for instance) I get upset if I'm in the middle of a difficult emotional situation and someone says "what is the point in getting so upset over this? I only had feelings like the ones you're describing when I was going through my divorce!" (yeah, someone actually said that to me and I didn't appreciate it - I've been a lot more guarded about my feelings with this person ever since ). Because of this remark, I felt silly and invalidated, as though I was a flawed person for being very upset over a situation that the other person didn't feel should be all that upsetting. But is that Fi? Not sure.

I'm SF and I experience this. It's really confusing. It makes me not believe there is much difference between the two.

I score higher on Fi than Fe on most function tests yet if I got my typing right (INTP) I should be an Fe user. Fe is in the inferior position though, which may explain the weak Fe score. I probably got my type right but still wonder sometimes about INFP because I do relate to alot of that type description. INFP has Fi dominant which could explain so much of my Fi/Fe confusion.

I relate to everything Silk Road said, especially regarding her stance on social conventions.

Also, like Giggly said, there may not be as much difference between Fi and Fe as people make out to be. Also alot of stuff on this forum is just conjecture and what one interprets as Fi someone else interprets as Fe.

 

[William K]

Also, like Giggly said, there may not be as much difference between Fi and Fe as people make out to be. Also alot of stuff on this forum is just conjecture and what one interprets as Fi someone else interprets as Fe.

The problem arises because we base our interpretation on the external actions/behaviour of a person, not the internal motivation since we can't see that.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

The problem arises because we base our interpretation on the external actions/behaviour of a person, not the internal motivation since we can't see that.

+1

 

[OrangeAppled]

I got your point here. I tend to feel that I do play by the societal rules and really dislike having unnecessary conflicts. Yet, whenever I felt really upset, it has more to do with crossing my Fi ethics, more so than Fe. I tend to be able to overlook when the Fe's convention codes of conducts are attacked by others by trying to keep my patience. Though I almost have zero patience to unleash my anger whenever I felt invalidation of my Fi and that's when I take things really personally.

Your "Fi ethics" are likely "Fe ethics". Fe values are still personal. The individual still reasons for themselves, chooses what values to adopt as true (some of which may be about individual needs), and even creates values. The difference lies in what basis they use to evaluate on - the external world or the self?

If you get a good grasp of just what that means, you'll see why the two don't coexist in one person, not in any dominant way that forms the visible personality. Hint: using the self as a gauge does NOT mean "what do I need?" or "what affects me?".

Fe & Fi are far from the same, diverging after the shared function of assigning value. Jung seemed to consider the I/E difference the biggest one in people.

Even where [Fe] seems to show a certain independence of the quality of the concrete object, it is none the less under the spell of....generally valid standards of some sort.

-------

[Fi] is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim, it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus.

Also, sometimes Fe+Ni = Fi mimic and Fi+Ne = Ni mimic. As mentioned, a different path to the same or nearly the same location.

I'm tested as 4w5 (and 4w3 in the past) but I can see myself fitting in e4. So perhaps there's a pattern in this...

Yes, 4s sound/seem Fi-ish....even if they aren't FPs. It has to do with creating/adopting values which appeal to the emotional motivations of the 4, which is about being unique/authentic/creative/an idealized self - in short, traits associated with Fi but which do not equal Fi itself.

There are a lot of Fe-ish aspects to 4s concerning desiring intense emotional connection with people, awareness of differences from others that cause shame, valuating the self against others who seem better/more special, etc.

Also remember the subjective influence of Pi - this is bringing in highly individual "info" regarding what is real.

 

[garbage]

I recently typed myself INFJ. The only function descriptions I don't relate halfway well to are Se and Si. The rest are situational, but I know well that I'm oriented toward intuition first and foremost. My perception is that I cannot help but see interconnections between ideas and phenomena--which hints at an innate orientation toward Ne--but that I also highly recognize the value of (and am capable of) taking on a mindset that enables one to 'see what's really going on' or 'attempt to subvert expectations' as an 'Ni user' might.

I can buy the whole 'reaching similar conclusions through different means' thing, though. I could claim that I am accommodating and nice and [other stereotypical Fe stuff here] because my 'Fi internal value system' tells me that these are things that I ought to do. Let's also keep in mind, though, that people who 'have' the same set of functions or the same type may *gasp* disagree on things once in a while.

We can either explain tendencies like the OP's as "we're capable of exercising capabilities and processes that may make us look like we're oriented toward Fe and Fi, and also we're all human and so have some things in common".. ..or we can explain it as "welllll, according to some typological model, you don't 'have' Fi; that's realllllyyyy just Ti and Ni in a dominant-tertiary loop which mashes with Fe, which is your auxiliary function, but is not the same thing as Fi since that is your critical parent function or whatever in your shadow block." I have a preference toward the former myself.

Perhaps we ought to learn from systems like Socionics, which recognizes that, for example, 'those with Fi in the ego block are 'capable' of Fe but do not tend to prefer it.'

--

I remember a recent thread on Fe/Fi conflict, where some 'Fi users' resonated with the 'hypothetical Fe' and vice versa. I guess it happens.

The tests are indicators, but they are also 'bunk' in many ways. Those things are typically more about capabilities and behaviors than they are about preferences or orientations; the latter may cause the former, but not always.