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[MBTI General] E's dating I's...who has the bigger sacrifice?

entropie

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The wise person foresees that the dating issues before marriage will not go away after marriage; they'll get worse. She should accept him the way he is or break up with him.

i dont believe that, people change, i have changed myself from antisocial drunkard to successful business man (tho i dont know where the difference is :D)

I maybe an idiot but I always believe there is hope. and in the ops case i dont think its really dramatic. i rather think he is just a bit jealous plus fears too loose her. if one doesnt make a huge problem out of that, you could try changing him. manipulation master out :)

p.s.: at some point the op wrote 'that she went out without him visiting friends and three bars alone in the middle of the night'

a man who loves his woman and doenst become jealous of his woman doing that, does not exist. and tho you can of course let your girl go party alone, you can only do that if you trust her. but if she uses to go out over and over again without reassuring trust but rather reassuring dislike towards his behaviour, problems will follow.

I rather see the classical problem here: xnfp forgets to think like his partner and doesnt calculate that he could interpret some things fundamentally different from the xnfps perception. I have such a version at home, I know what i am talking about (or at least i pretend to xD)
 

INTP

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I rather see the classical problem here: xnfp forgets to think like his partner and doesnt calculate that he could interpret some things fundamentally different from the xnfps perception. I have such a version at home, I know what i am talking about (or at least i pretend to xD)

That ISTJ is doing the same thing.

And i dont see whats the problem with letting your SO to go to a bar with her friends, its your benefit if it makes her happy and if you are an introvert, you might get some needed alone time at the same, so its a win-winwin situation, that is unless she cheated or he has any real reason not to trust her(in that case this issie should be dealt with before marriage) other than his own paranoia or has some obsessive need for control with lack of regard for other people.
 

2XtremeENFP

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...a man who loves his woman and doenst become jealous of his woman doing that, does not exist. and tho you can of course let your girl go party alone, you can only do that if you trust her. but if she uses to go out over and over again without reassuring trust but rather reassuring dislike towards his behaviour, problems will follow...

That ISTJ is doing the same thing.

And i dont see whats the problem with letting your SO to go to a bar with her friends, its your benefit if it makes her happy and if you are an introvert, you might get some needed alone time at the same, so its a win-winwin situation, that is unless she cheated or he has any real reason not to trust her(in that case this issie should be dealt with before marriage) other than his own paranoia or has some obsessive need for control with lack of regard for other people.

Before this gets too far, both me and my ISTJ have never ever cheated on one and another. And He is definitely not the jealous type at all. He isn't threated by ex boyfriends, he isn't really threatened by my guy friends. I think where he comes from is that it isn't "right" for a girl to hang out with guys by herself if she has a boyfriend. It isn't "right" for a wife to go out with mix gender if her husband isn't there. He doesnt think anything bad will happen, but rather, he feels that it just isn't what is suppose to happen. Though, If I can explain this correctly, he is worried what people think about him when he isn't there. That maybe people will think he's antisocial, weird, unsupportive, or whatever, perhaps undermine him. I'm not sure where this comes from. He is a very logical person. He tested as a type 5 (though, I'm not sure I fully agree on that yet...) so maybe that has something to do with it??

That being said, he isn't jealous of me going out at all. I do know that he wishes he could be more comfortable when he goes out, but then there's times where he takes PRIDE in the fact that he dislikes dancing, bars, loud music, etc. He loves being different than what the typical 'world' enjoys.
 

PeaceBaby

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Have you both ever taken the love languages quiz? This could be a way to connect adequately with each other and understand each other's needs and perspective.

I recommend you both take this test:

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Post back here with the results and I am happy to share more thoughts. I am an INFP married to an ESTJ (23 years) so I may have some experience of relevance.
 

INTP

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Before this gets too far, both me and my ISTJ have never ever cheated on one and another. And He is definitely not the jealous type at all. He isn't threated by ex boyfriends, he isn't really threatened by my guy friends. I think where he comes from is that it isn't "right" for a girl to hang out with guys by herself if she has a boyfriend. It isn't "right" for a wife to go out with mix gender if her husband isn't there. He doesnt think anything bad will happen, but rather, he feels that it just isn't what is suppose to happen. Though, If I can explain this correctly, he is worried what people think about him when he isn't there. That maybe people will think he's antisocial, weird, unsupportive, or whatever, perhaps undermine him. I'm not sure where this comes from. He is a very logical person. He tested as a type 5 (though, I'm not sure I fully agree on that yet...) so maybe that has something to do with it??

That being said, he isn't jealous of me going out at all. I do know that he wishes he could be more comfortable when he goes out, but then there's times where he takes PRIDE in the fact that he dislikes dancing, bars, loud music, etc. He loves being different than what the typical 'world' enjoys.

Okay, so he rather preserves his view on others as being someone who isnt antisocial rather than lets you have fun, even tho he doesent mind being seen as different from social butterflies :huh: ?

But you know this him seeing that there is something wrong with girls hanging out in mixed company is one of these Si weird shits(which i explained earlier when explaining his behavior) that he needs to work with. Believe me theres nothing wrong with that in the real world, its just some weird subjective truth of his that doesent make any sense when you compare it to real world and if he cant even explain it with jealousy, well i just see it as him having something wrong with his mind, some minor mental problem that he needs to work with.

But let me ask one thing, you said something before about him saying that he will be even more strict with this stuff after you get married. Are you willing to accept being something between a prisoner and a child to him for the rest of your life?
 

INTP

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And sorry for having this type of attitude towards him, it just makes me cry inside that someone restricts another persons freedom like this, isnt able to think whats good for someone he loves and isnt concerned how his partner feels(or honestly i cant even see that as love for the other person, but just love to self and childish want to have someone to love him also), and even more so if someone is willing to put up with this kind of shit for being such a good hearted person and due to some hormonal activity that they call love.. In my eyes this is equal to physical abuse of your partner
 

2XtremeENFP

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Okay, so he rather preserves his view on others as being someone who isnt antisocial rather than lets you have fun, even tho he doesent mind being seen as different from social butterflies :huh: ?

But you know this him seeing that there is something wrong with girls hanging out in mixed company is one of these Si weird shits(which i explained earlier when explaining his behavior) that he needs to work with. Believe me theres nothing wrong with that in the real world, its just some weird subjective truth of his that doesent make any sense when you compare it to real world and if he cant even explain it with jealousy, well i just see it as him having something wrong with his mind, some minor mental problem that he needs to work with.

But let me ask one thing, you said something before about him saying that he will be even more strict with this stuff after you get married. Are you willing to accept being something between a prisoner and a child to him for the rest of your life?


Yeah, I'm aware of all of this weird Si stuff haha I call him out on it all the time, and have showed him and he understood that he can be wrong about things. Again, there were questions we are going through for premartial counseling, one of the questions is how will your role with the other gender change once you are married -- which is how he gave his explanation to mixed gender hang outs. He really doesnt have any girl friends, and I have a lot of guy friends so I think he just doesnt understand it ya know? Anyways, I should have rephrased the "being more strict" I think his wording was more that once we are married, he would like me to limit my time with mixed gender hang outs. What I dont understand (which I will bring up during counseling) is why do things suddenly need to CHANGE once we are Married?? We've been dating for like 7 years, why does all of a sudden, things like this need to adapt?

I wouldnt use the word "prisoner" at all. as I have said, he isnt demanding and domineering and controlling, it's more of like the "child" relationship, which I talked to him about times before. That sometimes i feel like he 'fathers' me. He is aware and works on it.
 

INTP

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Yeah, I'm aware of all of this weird Si stuff haha I call him out on it all the time, and have showed him and he understood that he can be wrong about things. Again, there were questions we are going through for premartial counseling, one of the questions is how will your role with the other gender change once you are married -- which is how he gave his explanation to mixed gender hang outs. He really doesnt have any girl friends, and I have a lot of guy friends so I think he just doesnt understand it ya know? Anyways, I should have rephrased the "being more strict" I think his wording was more that once we are married, he would like me to limit my time with mixed gender hang outs. What I dont understand (which I will bring up during counseling) is why do things suddenly need to CHANGE once we are Married?? We've been dating for like 7 years, why does all of a sudden, things like this need to adapt?

I wouldnt use the word "prisoner" at all. as I have said, he isnt demanding and domineering and controlling, it's more of like the "child" relationship, which I talked to him about times before. That sometimes i feel like he 'fathers' me. He is aware and works on it.

Okay.

Btw have you talked about parenting, i could see you two having sooo different views on how to raise a child and i can see this bringing up some major problems.

Also you mentioned that your premaritial counseling is at church. Is the counselor some grumpy old fart who sees female-male friendship as something close to cheating or someone who lives on earth, not in heaven?
 

2XtremeENFP

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Have you both ever taken the love languages quiz? This could be a way to connect adequately with each other and understand each other's needs and perspective.

I recommend you both take this test:

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Post back here with the results and I am happy to share more thoughts. I am an INFP married to an ESTJ (23 years) so I may have some experience of relevance.

Yep! We took it for premarital counseling. This is the first theory type thing that I think he's ever found interesting and useful.

He scored leading with Acts of Services and very very close behind (maybe 1 point away) was a tie between Quality Time and Words of Affirmation.

I scored very high tying between Quality Time and Words of Affirmation. Very close behind was Physical touch.

We found that we both enjoy QT but on different terms. He likes when he knows I am doing something I dont like to make him happy. (Hence, why I created this thread-- i cant fathom that). I enjoy QT time as any NF would -- deep conversations and exploring ideas.

INFP & ESTJ? Yeah, I'd love some insight!!
 

INTP

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He likes when he knows I am doing something I dont like to make him happy.

Wtf, seriously.. Has he had some psychological evaluation? That sounds like serious psychopath trait..
 

entropie

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Before this gets too far, both me and my ISTJ have never ever cheated on one and another. And He is definitely not the jealous type at all. He isn't threated by ex boyfriends, he isn't really threatened by my guy friends. I think where he comes from is that it isn't "right" for a girl to hang out with guys by herself if she has a boyfriend. It isn't "right" for a wife to go out with mix gender if her husband isn't there. He doesnt think anything bad will happen, but rather, he feels that it just isn't what is suppose to happen. Though, If I can explain this correctly, he is worried what people think about him when he isn't there. That maybe people will think he's antisocial, weird, unsupportive, or whatever, perhaps undermine him. I'm not sure where this comes from. He is a very logical person. He tested as a type 5 (though, I'm not sure I fully agree on that yet...) so maybe that has something to do with it??

That being said, he isn't jealous of me going out at all. I do know that he wishes he could be more comfortable when he goes out, but then there's times where he takes PRIDE in the fact that he dislikes dancing, bars, loud music, etc. He loves being different than what the typical 'world' enjoys.

yea i see. the dynamic of your relationship you describe isnt one I have experience before. still it reminds me a lot of an istj friend of mine. I am tho quite clueless about that guy, so forgot what Ive said earlier
 

2XtremeENFP

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Okay.

Btw have you talked about parenting, i could see you two having sooo different views on how to raise a child and i can see this bringing up some major problems.

Also you mentioned that your premaritial counseling is at church. Is the counselor some grumpy old fart who sees female-male friendship as something close to cheating or someone who lives on earth, not in heaven?

Yeah, we have some similar parenting styles, though, he is way more conservative than I am (though, we are both very strong christians). Our biggest issue was discussing spanking which we will discuss with the pastor to help us sort our thoughts.

Thankfully, our pastor is so very understanding, and supports me in my values and ideas. He is in no way going to hold us to gender-stereotypes and things like that. I believe he is an INFP (and i believe his wife to be an ESTJ, though, not confirmed). He sees that my ISTJ can be uptight and hard to budge and he works on him to help understand others feelings. It;s great to have him, he is such an understanding pastor.
 

2XtremeENFP

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Wtf, seriously.. Has he had some psychological evaluation? That sounds like serious psychopath trait..

LOL I think it's acts of kindess mixed with quality time. hahahah for example, sporting games. I love playing sports but HATE watching it on TV. So he asks me all the time to sit and watch a game with him, even if I am uninterested or don't want to. If I were to watch the game, he would LOVE it, since I am doing something I dont want to do, just to be with him. Oh boy, i hope that clears it up :blush:

(This is why he wants to come out to social gatherings, even though he doesnt like it. He views this as showing love. Though, I do not, and wish he could understand that I dont appreciate sacrifices like that)
 

INTP

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Yeah, we have some similar parenting styles, though, he is way more conservative than I am (though, we are both very strong christians). Our biggest issue was discussing spanking which we will discuss with the pastor to help us sort our thoughts.

Thankfully, our pastor is so very understanding, and supports me in my values and ideas. He is in no way going to hold us to gender-stereotypes and things like that. I believe he is an INFP (and i believe his wife to be an ESTJ, though, not confirmed). He sees that my ISTJ can be uptight and hard to budge and he works on him to help understand others feelings. It;s great to have him, he is such an understanding pastor.

Lol i was going to say that he would most likely raise the children with a belt and some 1800's values, while youd try to make them explore the world and support the child.. But i thought it might had been bit too harsh.

I hope your religious world views(or more the world view you have because raised in religious surroundings) doesent keep you from looking for a mentally healthy man..
 

INTP

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LOL I think it's acts of kindess mixed with quality time. hahahah for example, sporting games. I love playing sports but HATE watching it on TV. So he asks me all the time to sit and watch a game with him, even if I am uninterested or don't want to. If I were to watch the game, he would LOVE it, since I am doing something I dont want to do, just to be with him. Oh boy, i hope that clears it up :blush:

(This is why he wants to come out to social gatherings, even though he doesnt like it. He views this as showing love. Though, I do not, and wish he could understand that I dont appreciate sacrifices like that)

Yea, but i dont have any problems seeing this sort of trait developing into marital rape or stuff like that over time after he thinks he cant lose you and gets pissed off about you for you not raising the children properly, dont obey his rules etc etc..
 
G

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Yep. I'm dating an ENFP and this is precisely what I do. While I watch Netflix, he goes out with his friends and parties like it's 1999... and then he comes home when his stomach is in knots because he decided to be the belle of the ball and shotgun 12 blazin' hot buffalo wild wings for a free t-shirt.

:dry:

Stomachs don't always repair themselves but t shirts are forever. :happy2:
 
A

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Unless I am fooling myself, I do accept him the way he is. We did break up a few years ago, and I dated around and realized that he is the best for me, even though we have our differences. I decided to embrace them and grow instead of getting upset every time we are different.

I am asking these questions not to change him, but to understand where he is coming from, to check and balance my rationality, and to sort my thoughts. I am not going to break up with him, or push the wedding. I didn't ask those questions -- we both work and WANT to work on our relationship.
One moment you're unhappy about the way he limits your social activities, the next moment you're making excuses for him.

You don't have a workable problem. The issue is between your innate personalities, which you both must accept may never change. He does NOT like to be around people, so he will stay home, while you go out with your girlfriends. He will rush you around when he does go; just as he has always done. Accept that. If he changes, great!

I'm assuming he is secure in himself to let you go out without him? If he has shown any signs of distrust in the past, then yes, you are beyond a fool to marry him.

(It's unreasonable to expect any more than what you've consistently seen the last 7-years of dating. I don't understand why you both waited until you get married to see if you can work through this.)

[MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION]: good posts.
 

2XtremeENFP

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Lol i was going to say that he would most likely raise the children with a belt and some 1800's values, while youd try to make them explore the world and support the child.. But i thought it might had been bit too harsh.

I hope your religious world views(or more the world view you have because raised in religious surroundings) doesent keep you from looking for a mentally healthy man..

I wasn't really grown up in a religious background. Kinda sorta. Grew up in a home where we believe in God, but didnt adjust our lifestyles. Where now, I make an active effort to live the way I am called to. (Though, this is a whole other topic...)
 

INTP

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Now i feel bad for trying to control your thoughts :( lol

Anyways, you should keep in mind that as an ENFP in love, you most likely have way overly idealistic view about him, so think about this very carefully, and try to do so with your Te, your NeFi wont give you a realistic view that will last.

Try to see him as someone who is for example your friends(or sisters, someone who is as important to you as you are) boyfriend, and your friend is you. Think about it rationally, look at it from all angles over and over again and think if you would want your friend to marry this guy or find someone else. Dont think about you losing love, love is something you can find again, think about this person from objective point of view, thats something you are trading and the thing that you wont find again, but after knowing that you will find love again. You dumbing him wouldnt be the end of love, just a new person amd new love.

But i dont agree that its impossible for him to change, just nearly impossible, also why wouod he change if you just go with what ever he says and simply dont put your foot down and tell him tht you like to spend time with your friends, thats who you are, if he doesent like you, he can fuck off..
 

INTP

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I wasn't really grown up in a religious background. Kinda sorta. Grew up in a home where we believe in God, but didnt adjust our lifestyles. Where now, I make an active effort to live the way I am called to. (Though, this is a whole other topic...)

Okay. But you know, you are the one making the calling for yourself ;) but not going to make this as a religious debate.
 
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