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[MBTI General] E's dating I's...who has the bigger sacrifice?

2XtremeENFP

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Bad chemistry, re-examine what your relationship is built on and put the wedding on hold.

Our relationship is built on great foundation. We just have misunderstandings sometimes and I like to sort out my thoughts here. We've been dating for over 7 years. We know ourselves and each other well, just miscommunication sometimes
 

2XtremeENFP

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sacrifice is stupid. if you have to sacrifice a lot in a relationship, get another one

I tend to agree with this. I think he sees sacrifice as a way of showing love, I don't lol
 

2XtremeENFP

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Reminds me a little bit of an article I recently read on Psychologytoday.com. Apparently it doesn't matter if you are very different in some ways if you maintain the communication lines. Here's an interesting portion with a real life example of a couple:

THANK YOU! I love this!!!! Me and my fiance are differently two different personalities with different interests, but we value that we are different and take pride in the fact that it helps make us wholer individuals. I need to reassure him of this, because even though he likes that we are different, but sometimes it can be so hard too
 

iwakar

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I tend to agree with this. I think he sees sacrifice as a way of showing love, I don't lol

That is alarming. If you agree with elfboy that sacrifice is stupid, I don't think you're ready for marriage.
 

2XtremeENFP

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That is alarming. If you agree with elfboy that sacrifice is stupid, I don't think you're ready for marriage.

Meeeeh you dont understand what I am saying. Did you read my original post?

What I am saying is there is ways to show love. OF COURSE I sacrifice! My goodness, I'm and ENFP enagaged to an ISTJ for goodness sake! What I am saying, is that I would not want someone to do something they hate "for me to be happy". That is selfish to me. I can't enjoy myself knowing that another person is doing something they do want to do. That's not me. Sacrifice can be done in many ways. I sacrifice in different ways than he does and he does in different ways than I do. I just cant enjoy myself when I know someone else isn't enjoying themselve.
 

iwakar

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Meeeeh you dont understand what I am saying. Did you read my original post?

What I am saying is there is ways to show love. OF COURSE I sacrifice! My goodness, I'm and ENFP enagaged to an ISTJ for goodness sake! What I am saying, is that I would not want someone to do something they hate "for me to be happy". That is selfish to me. I can't enjoy myself knowing that another person is doing something they do want to do. That's not me. Sacrifice can be done in many ways. I sacrifice in different ways than he does and he does in different ways than I do. I just cant enjoy myself when I know someone else isn't enjoying themselve.

I did.

I'm glad you don't actually feel the way you claimed you did about sacrifice and love.

A personal observation on ENFPs (and ENTPs, well ExxPs really) is that they are capable of being flippant and may casually say absurd things that they do not really mean out of boredom, exasperation, or laziness. Clear communication is important in a relationship. ISTJs require this clarity even more than INFJs do, so I hope you two can bridge the chasm. On the plus side, your love language (Fi) and action orientation (Te) are the same despite your very different types. I think this is the same reason I am sometimes attracted to ESTPs.

In the end it really doesn't matter that you two don't like the same things, or if you think each other's activities are strange, boring, or pointless. What matters is your willingness to accommodate the other's interests because loving other people means their happiness matters to you. I don't share my boyfriend's enthusiasm for amphibians, extreme food competitions, or keggers, but I partake on all of the above on occasion (at my own comfort level) out of love for him and I don't resent doing it. I'm not a brat about it. I don't pout. I make the best of it. And the b/f will return the favor when I'm keen on watching a Jane Austen movie or going to the museum and sometimes he surprises himself by enjoying it. This is really critical because I hear a lot of people (like my stepmother) claiming to respect their s.o.'s activities, but b*tch and moan when asked to participate or accommodate. That's not compromise. That's the appearance of compromise so you can claim the martyr position in the relationship and leverage it to manipulate your partner into getting what you want. And it seems like you realize all of this, but maybe he doesn't.

I'd think about my talking points in advance and level with him. Maybe share the things you're willing to flex on and ask him directly what things is he willing to flex on. And be sure you tell him not to say things he'll do begrudgingly, but stuff he really is okay stepping back on. Tell him that this is really important to you. Then give him some time if he needs it. Us IxxJs generally need time and space to think things over that require a perspective adjustment before we can get back to you, but generally (if we are reasonable and mature), and we know it's important to you, we will think it over.

It's a must that both parties value and respect what the other contributes to their life experience, but not a must that you share all the same interests. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Opposites attract. Whatever angle you want to take, just remind him of that fundamental. Don't sit on this. This is laying the groundwork for your marriage. Best of luck.
 

2XtremeENFP

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Thank you, this makes a lot of sense and helps a great deal!

I did.

I'm glad you don't actually feel the way you claimed you did about sacrifice and love.

A personal observation on ENFPs (and ENTPs, well ExxPs really) is that they are capable of being flippant and may casually say absurd things that they do not really mean out of boredom, exasperation, or laziness. Clear communication is important in a relationship. ISTJs require this clarity even more than INFJs do, so I hope you two can bridge the chasm. On the plus side, your love language (Fi) and action orientation (Te) are the same despite your very different types. I think this is the same reason I am sometimes attracted to ESTPs.

In the end it really doesn't matter that you two don't like the same things, or if you think each other's activities are strange, boring, or pointless. What matters is your willingness to accommodate the other's interests because loving other people means their happiness matters to you. I don't share my boyfriend's enthusiasm for amphibians, extreme food competitions, or keggers, but I partake on all of the above on occasion (at my own comfort level) out of love for him and I don't resent doing it. I'm not a brat about it. I don't pout. I make the best of it. And the b/f will return the favor when I'm keen on watching a Jane Austen movie or going to the museum and sometimes he surprises himself by enjoying it. This is really critical because I hear a lot of people (like my stepmother) claiming to respect their s.o.'s activities, but b*tch and moan when asked to participate or accommodate. That's not compromise. That's the appearance of compromise so you can claim the martyr position in the relationship and leverage it to manipulate your partner into getting what you want. And it seems like you realize all of this, but maybe he doesn't.

I'd think about my talking points in advance and level with him. Maybe share the things you're willing to flex on and ask him directly what things is he willing to flex on. And be sure you tell him not to say things he'll do begrudgingly, but stuff he really is okay stepping back on. Tell him that this is really important to you. Then give him some time if he needs it. Us IxxJs generally need time and space to think things over that require a perspective adjustment before we can get back to you, but generally (if we are reasonable and mature), and we know it's important to you, we will think it over.

It's a must that both parties value and respect what the other contributes to their life experience, but not a must that you share all the same interests. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Opposites attract. Whatever angle you want to take, just remind him of that fundamental. Don't sit on this. This is laying the groundwork for your marriage. Best of luck.
 
A

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I thoroughly enjoy hanging out with friends, indoors, outdoors, bars, concerts, house parties, get togethers... anything! I enjoy spending hours with people. I can't go for just "an hour" because I feel like I'm just getting started.
I know exactly how you feel. I'm the same!

The issue is that he feels that as a couple, we need to spend these outtings together. If I want to stay, and he wants to leave, he believes I should leave, since we already spent time at the gathering. Why stay?
I think this as a compatibility issue. I briefly dated a guy like yours and couldn't get away from him fast enough. When I'm out, I'm dancing until the party is over. I can't enjoy myself when I'm constantly rushed and nagged to go.

But with this value, no one is really having fun, ya know?
That's exactly right!

Is sacrifice like this worth it?
I don't think so. Personally, I wouldn't settle for an uptight guy like that.

Am I crazy? Who has a harder time dealing with this? E's or I's?
It's mutual. If you marry him, you absolutely should accept him the way he is and meet him in the middle (aka, sacrifice). Unfortunately, if you want the relationship to work, both of you will have to make some painful sacrifices. Stop and ask yourself what those sacrifices are and will you be happy doing that for the rest of your life.

Edit: All relationships require sacrifice; the amount and significance will vary with type.
 

Elfa

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If you two have to be making sacrifices to each other, why are you in a relationship? Shouldn't a relationship be a good thing?
 

ceecee

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The issue is that he feels that as a couple, we need to spend these outtings together. If I want to stay, and he wants to leave, he believes I should leave, since we already spent time at the gathering. Why stay? We've already been here for X amount of time. He says that during gatherings, he doesn't want me to go alone, he wants to go. But when he goes, he doesn't have fun, and then I can't have fun. I ask him to just pass on going on the event and I'll go with friends, and he doesn't want to do that because that's "not what couples do". Once we are married, he already voiced that he feels he will be more strict with this value. That it's only right if married people do everything together.

This is incredibly concerning. Going by this and your previous posts I can only say - do not marry him. Unless you will enjoy the divorce proceedings. He doesn't want you to go alone because he is a control freak and once you are married to him, he'll feel he has every right to control you and it doesn't matter what he says in regard to that now. The dating stage only gives him so much control. Not that you're going to listen to any of this advice so, do whatever you like, it's not going to make any difference to the end result.
 

Totenkindly

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Bad chemistry, re-examine what your relationship is built on and put the wedding on hold.

^^ That.

His belief that couples have to do everything together means that he really should be involved with another ISJ, they're probably the most compatible if that is what he expects the relationship to look like. ENFP seems willing to have some together time, then have some separate time in order for both sets of needs to be honored; meanwhile, ISTJ seems to be demanding that everything conform to his needs.

Realistically, two types that are so different (ENFP and ISTJ) need to basically be willing to let the other have more alone time, if it's going to work, since their personal needs are in such contrast unless they are both well-rounded. But he sounds like a pretty stringent, dyed in the wool ISTJ, especially if he plans to crack down even more harshly once you get married.

I really would put things on hold, until you guys work out what flex is going to exist in the relationship or until you decide your needs are incompatible and getting married would be the equivalent of blowing up on the pad.
 
G

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The issue is that he feels that as a couple, we need to spend these outtings together. If I want to stay, and he wants to leave, he believes I should leave, since we already spent time at the gathering. Why stay? We've already been here for X amount of time. He says that during gatherings, he doesn't want me to go alone, he wants to go. But when he goes, he doesn't have fun, and then I can't have fun. I ask him to just pass on going on the event and I'll go with friends, and he doesn't want to do that because that's "not what couples do". Once we are married, he already voiced that he feels he will be more strict with this value. That it's only right if married people do everything together.

But with this value, no one is really having fun, ya know? I can't enjoy myself because I know he doesn't want to be there. I don't want to leave early because I am enjoying myself and then he doesn't want to stay. I understand there needs to be compromise -- but I don't feel loved by self-sacrifice. Why should he feel "happy" that I sacrificed my happiness to leave a party early. Why should I feel "loved" that he stayed out for 3 hours when he didn't enjoy any bit of it.

He wants to do everything together but does not like to do what you like to do. Interesting combination, to say the least.

Either he needs to compromise on his value, or you need to try not to take responsibility or guilt for him not having fun. The former takes work on his part, and the latter is a lot to ask from you and seems like it would eventually strain the relationship. The reality is that different people do have different interests and that it is okay--even healthy--for couples to not spend every waking moment together.

I mean, at least mulling this over with a third party like a premarital counselor seems like a good idea. If the option for counseling is there, I'd recommend it for any prospective couple. (We start ours tomorrow.)
 

2XtremeENFP

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This is incredibly concerning. Going by this and your previous posts I can only say - do not marry him. Unless you will enjoy the divorce proceedings. He doesn't want you to go alone because he is a control freak and once you are married to him, he'll feel he has every right to control you and it doesn't matter what he says in regard to that now. The dating stage only gives him so much control. Not that you're going to listen to any of this advice so, do whatever you like, it's not going to make any difference to the end result.


I do not believe he is a control freak. We are talking about expectations of our marriage. I mean, couldn't I be viewed as the same? I am controlling because I do not want to leave my friends early.
 

2XtremeENFP

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He wants to do everything together but does not like to do what you like to do. Interesting combination, to say the least.

Either he needs to compromise on his value, or you need to try not to take responsibility or guilt for him not having fun. The former takes work on his part, and the latter is a lot to ask from you and seems like it would eventually strain the relationship. The reality is that different people do have different interests and that it is okay--even healthy--for couples to not spend every waking moment together.

I mean, at least mulling this over with a third party like a premarital counselor seems like a good idea. If the option for counseling is there, I'd recommend it for any prospective couple. (We start ours tomorrow.)

Wow. Thank you for this post. I mean that.

(The bolded part is my simple complaint. I don't understand his POV about that...)

We are doing premartial counseling now through our church. our pastor gave us a list of "martial expectations" questions to go through with each other and then come to him with some issues we find. This is obviously one that we will talk about in our next meeting. It's great that our pastor knows me and the ISTJ so well, he sees that we are so different but he supports us and thinks that we compliment each other well.

I am often worried that I make the ISTJ look so bad with the threads that I create. But I often come here to seek understanding, and I don't nearly praise the ISTJ I am with enough! we just are different, and sometimes it causes problems, but other times, we both grow so much and we love that.
 

INTP

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I do not believe he is a control freak. We are talking about expectations of our marriage. I mean, couldn't I be viewed as the same? I am controlling because I do not want to leave my friends early.

But you see, you are trying to control yourself, not him, hes doing the opposite.
 

entropie

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Deep down, but he'ld never admit that, he's envious of you being so good with people and he is not. he could become better, if you maybe try to help him, but you'ld prolly need to break a lot of ice first, cause its unsure if he wants so much social interaction at all. some people just dont need so much of that and tho i am an extrovert, i hate social gatherings aswell.

his greatest problem tho or fear and thats too why you dont come to terms, is that he is afraid too loose you, if he cant be the man for you, you need. and thats his impression that he cant because he thinks he's a party pooper. if you dont adress that but rather blame him, this wont help the situation.

I am personally surprised by the sheer amount of childish and unwise answers almost egoistical replies in this thread. but it explains why so many relationships just fail.
 
A

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I am personally surprised by the sheer amount of childish and unwise answers almost egoistical replies in this thread. but it explains why so many relationships just fail.
The wise person foresees that the dating issues before marriage will not go away after marriage; they'll get worse. She should accept him the way he is or break up with him.
 

2XtremeENFP

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The wise person foresees that the dating issues before marriage will not go away after marriage; they'll get worse. She should accept him the way he is or break up with him.

Unless I am fooling myself, I do accept him the way he is. We did break up a few years ago, and I dated around and realized that he is the best for me, even though we have our differences. I decided to embrace them and grow instead of getting upset every time we are different.

I am asking these questions not to change him, but to understand where he is coming from, to check and balance my rationality, and to sort my thoughts. I am not going to break up with him, or push the wedding. I didn't ask those questions -- we both work and WANT to work on our relationship.
 

INTP

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Unless I am fooling myself, I do accept him the way he is. We did break up a few years ago, and I dated around and realized that he is the best for me, even though we have our differences. I decided to embrace them and grow instead of getting upset every time we are different.

I am asking these questions not to change him, but to understand where he is coming from, to check and balance my rationality, and to sort my thoughts. I am not going to break up with him, or push the wedding. I didn't ask those questions -- we both work and WANT to work on our relationship.

If you both want to work on your relationship, doesent that imply that he is willing to change too? From what you say, it seems as if you are the only one wanting to change to his needs and he just gets upset when you dont bend to his will..

But if you want to understand him, i dont really know anything else to say other than dom Si and aux Te. Because of this, he sees his subjective view(about what is, should be) as the only truth that counts and because of Te, he wants to control his external world and fit it to his Si. Him changing with these things will be EXTREMELY hard, because those things are pretty much the definition of his personality, those things his ego sees as most himself(ofc he is something else too), its the way he has always dealt with the world. Imo the very definition of immature is the inability to go against your dom and aux functions and it seems to be a hard job for him.. You sure that he is mature enough to even get married yet? And do remember that his immaturity is your maturity and your maturity is his immaturity(opposite function order).
 
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