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  1. #1
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Default Was I being rude?

    I had exchanged IM message with my ENTJ best friend yesterday, which didn't turn up too well. Though I also wonder if I were being too blunt to get my message across to her through our interaction online:


    [out of the blue]

    ENTJ: Have you ever thought about web business?

    Crescent: Of course, but I don't have any capital for that now. My priority right now is to land a perm job and networking.

    ENTJ: What do you want to sell tho?

    Crescent: Those trendy kitchenware, home deco stuff on Robson [a main shopping district in Vancouver]. Why did you ask?

    ENTJ: I think to start small, you should think about how you can do it yourself. Starting a biz is not about hiring.

    Crescent: In that case, it's better start something as a hobby.

    ENTJ: Many online biz starts small. Once you have the foundation, you can build a house. It doesn't have to be about selling a product. You could sell a service.

    Crescent: Okay, go on.

    ENTJ: I was thinking about shopping tour guide. Many financially established people don't like to travel in a big tour. You could advertise as a private tour guide.

    Crescent: You want to run that in Van? Go for it if that's your dream!

    ENTJ: I'm thinking for you. You need a car tho.

    Crescent: Oh hon, personally I think that won't work.

    ENTJ: Actually this is not new.

    Crescent: T., personally I think you and I have very different judgement in many things. Personally I'm not interested in being a tour guide. People who prefer to go on tour are rather conservative and I don't think it's that easy to deal with them.

    ENTJ: Exactly, But they don't speak the languages so they must hire someone to take them around. My friend actually hired one in Laos. She said she really made the best decision of hiring one

    Crescent: I'm not interested in it. Period.

    ENTJ: Stop being so stubborn. You've been jobless for too long hon. What about Patrick? Just call him, I can give you his number.

    Crescent: Well, I know you think of me in a good way for all this, but I think it's equally important not to strongly impose one's ideology or values on others. We have to agree with our disagreement. So I think from now on I hope we will talk no more about my job or career, unless I asked from you specifically. I think that's for the best.

    Also, whenever we have serious convos, somehow I felt even more depressed or discouraged after chatting with you. I think that "I'll never be a waitress if I move back to Japan" is not an appropriate joke when I informed you that I have applied for one. I know you didn't intend, but I just hope that you will watch my current life scenario more carefully and put it into consideration as it did affect me somewhat esp when I got a call today for a job interview as a waitress. You knew this beforehand.

    And about P., I understand your POV but I hope there won't be any discussion about him either. I seriously do not want to re-connect with him because he can be a little too clingy. Also, he's your ex-coworker and I have nothing in common with him. Even you complained about him when we all lived in Van back then! Being a good friend doesn't necessary mean you have to change them but just try to accept who they are. I know I'm not in any position to be picky when I don't even have much social life here, but I don't want to force myself to hangout with people who wear me out.

    Sometimes I felt stressed whenever I felt I had to agree with your just to avoid the topic just to get in line with you over the phone. I am just telling you how I felt truthfully, so I hope you won't take it in a negative way. After all, we've been friends for many years.


    ENTJ: I think it's best that we don't keep in contact for a while. There are things you said to me which are equally less considerate. If I have to watch what I am saying around you, then there is not much of truth in our friendship. And really, take your attitude somewhere else.

    [ENTJ friend left chat]




    I realized I probably reveal too much at once about my complains to her. Though I had been patience to listen to all of her vents from her job and stood by her at all times. Honestly, 2011 hasn't been a great year for me as I had to go through many drastic changes in life. I was quite stressed out as the job prospect didn't turn out to be great here, and yet I felt she had try very hard to be thoughtful of me in her own ways--which I felt it's really energy draining to get this type of random, yet forceful suggestion out of the blue (this isn't the first time she's been doing this to me).

    Anyhow. Still, I thought I need a second opinion. I felt perhaps I shouldn't reveal exactly how I felt about the pressure that I had from her. Though one of my weakness in communication is to add sugarcoating when I want to be deeply honest about my POV to anyone who means a lot to me.

    I don't know, I guess I'm confused. Perhaps I was wrong?
    Last edited by Crescent Fresh; 01-17-2012 at 02:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Riva
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    Yes you were being rude according to my opinion. But the truth is you can't blame yourself for that.

    You obviously have a lot of difficulties and she rather than listening to you -

    Well, I know you think of me in a good way for all this, but I think it's equally important not to strongly impose one's ideology or values on others. We have to agree with our disagreement. So I think from now on I hope we will talk no more about my job or career, unless I asked from you specifically. I think that's for the best.
    She tried to sickeningly do exactly what you accused her of doing. And literally tried to provide you with Patrick. What was that about? That was horrible. If I was you I would have felt disgusted by her trying to provide you with Patrick. It is as if she believes you are so down low right now, you could afford to be with someone you dislike or is disgusted with.

    She obviously doesn't understand how to provide help to a person. Instead she is providing 'her solutions' without considering you in to the scenario.

    But,you were still being rude. How you may ask? By being truthful. You see, you are obviously good with words and your words came out so accurately .

    But in conflict situations where persons whom you are close to are concerned it is best that one doesn't sound very accurate especially in criticism.

    ---

    In short,

    She was horrible at dealing with emotions and being there for you. (I assume she generally is).

    And you were being way to truthful, at was sharper than a butcher's knife.

  3. #3
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I don't know anything much about either person, but am familiar with one aspect of this dynamic. Some people assume that when you present a problem in your life you are asking them for a solution. There is no concept of listening or mirroring back to help you figure things out for yourself. A great many people think that if you say you need a job, are sad, lonely, that you are asking them to come up with a specific solution. I had to learn that about people. So if this is the mindset, then they think they have been asked to impose a solution and so when it is rejected, they are confused. I have found that to interact with this style, a few things can help.

    1. Just respond by saying you will think about it even if you basically know it isn't going to work in your case. Then move on to other topics.
    2. Instead of presenting it as a general problem, come up with some specific conclusions you already have to move the discussion more to the level of detail of implementation and not coming up with the foundational idea.
    3. Avoid getting offended when it feels like they are imposing their will onto you. My guess is that people who think this way don't get offended when someone imposes solutions on them, they just reject the idea. Realize they aren't in control even when their communication style feels like they are trying to take control. You can just respond that you appreciate the input, and will apply whatever aspects of it will help solve the problem, but you are interested/excited to solve the problem yourself and have a number of ideas.

    I think it is the moment the imposing of ideas is taken personally that the rift occurs. Realize that many people assume that when a problem is presented, they are asked to come up with a solution, and so they think they are responding in the way they are supposed to. This is my best take on it from my own experiences.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #4
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    She tried to sickeningly do exactly what you accused her of doing. And literally tried to provide you with Patrick. What was that about? That was horrible. If I was you I would have felt disgusted by her trying to provide you with Patrick. It is as if she believes you are so down low right now, you could afford to be with someone you dislike or is disgusted with.
    When it comes to Patrick, he's just an acquaintance as I get to know him as her co-worker. I only get to see him when my friend tags him along, but we never exchange numbers or anything.

    We happened to plan a trip among my best friends (six of us) right after I quitted my job in Feb. The problem is she insisted to bring him along (though there are three other male friends) while my other friends didn't really care much. What is more, during the whole 6-day-trip, she tried hard to play the role as a matchmaker between us. I happened to tell her bluntly that I did not appreciate this at all.


    She obviously doesn't understand how to provide help to a person. Instead she is providing 'her solutions' without considering you in to the scenario.

    But,you were still being rude. How you may ask? By being truthful. You see, you are obviously good with words and your words came out so accurately .
    For some reasons, she has this 'motherly' instinct to take care of me even though she's only two years older. Though she happen to get jealous really easily and isn't afraid to show it.

    I usually watch my words very carefully as I do not want to offend others with my own judgement. Though I happen to be very truthful to people who mean a world to me. Now I'm having second thoughts as my ISFP mother always reminded me that even with friends, I should keep a certain emotional distance.


    But in conflict situations where persons whom you are close to are concerned it is best that one doesn't sound very accurate especially in criticism.
    ... And you were being way to truthful, at was sharper than a butcher's knife.
    I'm not sure if this is part of INFJ's trait but I usually have a good grip of controlling my bluntness unless I'm really stressed--which I've been lately.


    Thanks for your input btw!

  5. #5
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I don't know anything much about either person, but am familiar with one aspect of this dynamic. Some people assume that when you present a problem in your life you are asking them for a solution. There is no concept of listening or mirroring back to help you figure things out for yourself. A great many people think that if you say you need a job, are sad, lonely, that you are asking them to come up with a specific solution. I had to learn that about people. So if this is the mindset, then they think they have been asked to impose a solution and so when it is rejected, they are confused. I have found that to interact with this style, a few things can help.

    1. Just respond by saying you will think about it even if you basically know it isn't going to work in your case. Then move on to other topics.
    2. Instead of presenting it as a general problem, come up with some specific conclusions you already have to move the discussion more to the level of detail of implementation and not coming up with the foundational idea.
    3. Avoid getting offended when it feels like they are imposing their will onto you. My guess is that people who think this way don't get offended when someone imposes solutions on them, they just reject the idea. Realize they aren't in control even when their communication style feels like they are trying to take control. You can just respond that you appreciate the input, and will apply whatever aspects of it will help solve the problem, but you are interested/excited to solve the problem yourself and have a number of ideas.


    Actually I've done all the things you've suggested as this isn't the first time she did this. I've tried in the past to avoid topic by changing to a different topic and briefly accepted her suggestions and try to steer away from the discussion. Though it seems to me that she just didn't get what she has been trying to offer has been counter-productive. You know how most INFJ can be quite pessimistic when things hit hard on them? Her worldview is even more depressed and I'm not sure if it might have to do with ENTJ's personality trait, but her tone can be quite authoritative and pushy. I know she did it as her way to show her kindness to me, but I just couldn't bare it any more after trying hard to tolerate her way of thinking. She's more of a realist comparatively, but also a pessimist.

    I think it is the moment the imposing of ideas is taken personally that the rift occurs. Realize that many people assume that when a problem is presented, they are asked to come up with a solution, and so they think they are responding in the way they are supposed to. This is my best take on it from my own experiences.
    But what would you do if they just didn't get the hint or unwilling to stop?

    Honestly, I did vent about the hardships which I'm going through. So I think you're right about that might sent her the wrong message that I'm actually seeking advice from her, when all I want is just someone to listen and to release my stress. I'm not even sure if she's really an ENTJ but she did get tested as one repeatedly when I asked her to.

    I think Riva was right, perhaps I should've have used honesty to shut her down.

    Thanks for sharing your insight btw!

  6. #6
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    huh. the other person was obviously trying to be helpful, the polite answer is "I'm not interested, thanks for the suggestions". or even "I'll think about it" if you don't want to flatly turn them down.

    what you said here is perfect (ok, a little weird to be so strict about forbidding innocent conversational topics, but I don't know the context):

    Well, I know you think of me in a good way for all this, but I think it's equally important not to strongly impose one's ideology or values on others. We have to agree with our disagreement. So I think from now on I hope we will talk no more about my job or career, unless I asked from you specifically. I think that's for the best.
    ...but then you went on to unload on the entj for everything they've ever "done to you" while they were trying to help you....that's better to bring up at another time, but even better to address things as they happen rather than storing up a laundry list of "oh yeah well you called me names in 1983 and it hurt my feelings" to bring up the next time they annoy you.

    edit: actually now I think about it a little more, I'm confused about the "strongly impose one's ideology or values on another", unless that refers to an unmentioned earlier scenario. If you're basing that on the conversation shown here, I don't blame her for being offended - she wasn't trying to impose anything, she was offering suggestions. I'd be offended if my friend was complaining, I offered possible solutions, and she told me I was trying to "strongly impose [my] ideology or values on [her]" and to be honest, I would probably have a similar reaction to your friend.

    In other words, if you're not going to say upfront "please don't give me ANY advice, I only want a shoulder to cry on" it's way out of line to get mad at her for offering advice just because you don't like the advice...
    -end of thread-

  7. #7
    Riva
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    Awwww... you are welcome .

    Your ISFP mother is right and I agree with her. One should always keep an emotional distance even with the closest friends. Maybe this should especially be applied to blunt honesty about each other and feelings towards each other. I have best friends that I believe are cowardly unreliable pussies. But I do not tell them, knowing that honestly would hurt them and rip us apart.

    But you were stressed and it was only a brief moment of honest well deserved anger. This happens to everyone.

    Whatever happens from this moment onwards is your choice. So if your choice is to patch things up between the both of you I hope that all goes well between the both of you .

    Next time when you feel the need to be honest, just remember that maybe it is better (atleast according to my opinion) to be vague when it comes to potentially dangerous situations.

  8. #8
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    But what would you do if they just didn't get the hint or unwilling to stop?

    Honestly, I did vent about the hardships which I'm going through. So I think you're right about that might sent her the wrong message that I'm actually seeking advice from her, when all I want is just someone to listen and to release my stress. I'm not even sure if she's really an ENTJ but she did get tested as one repeatedly when I asked her to.

    I think Riva was right, perhaps I should've have used honesty to shut her down.

    Thanks for sharing your insight btw!
    I keep thinking about this dynamic because it is rather pervasive throughout society. That approach to problem solving is even what medical doctors tend to use - problem is presented, they come up with a specific diagnosis with tests and medication. Then you have to try it before you reject it as not working. It doesn't work, so then once again, specific diagnosis and medication. Didn't work, another conclusion, etc. I don't care for that approach because it wastes a lot of energy and can be incredibly inefficient and cause much more hardship than more extended analysis before the conclusion would produce.

    What strikes me is that it is an approach that is communicated with more certitude than the process actually implies. I think alot of people approach problems in this way, so that even if they are relentless in their quick certitude, they deep down realize that once tried, it may fail.

    I've struggled with this also because it can feel incredibly patronizing. It suggests that the problem you present can be solved in 30 seconds and that you are not smart enough to have figured it out over a lifetime. When I have experienced relentless exchanges I have had to step back and realize that isn't necessarily the motivation, but still there are cases when certain topics in the end have to be avoided if people just aren't wired to communicate the same way about it.

    edit: and to answer the original question, it didn't strike me as rudeness, but as frustration. It is one of the most difficult miscommunications because when there is a personal problem that is hard to solve, there is already a lot of frustration over it, so the non-listening, commanding approach can be most difficult to be confronted with.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  9. #9
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    huh. the other person was obviously trying to be helpful, the polite answer is "I'm not interested, thanks for the suggestions". or even "I'll think about it" if you don't want to flatly turn them down.

    what you said here is perfect (ok, a little weird to be so strict about forbidding innocent conversational topics, but I don't know the context):
    Believe me, I've tried to turn down in numerous occasions, it's just that I felt this has got to stop when I always felt discouraged after talking with her.

    I'm in the middle of switching my career path and it's an ambitious one because of the current weak economic trend. Though she often strongly against me settling with my ideals and try to persuade me just to settle any job. I've been waitressing for a while but I honestly don't have the extroverted energy to serve customers in servicing industry. Yet, she's always pushing me into this direction simply by asking me not to be picky.

    On the other hand, my other best friend, who is an ENFP working in a MNC, tries to encourage me positively and I can relate to her more than my ENTJ friend. She knows this too, and I felt she is somewhat jealous of me taking my ENFP's advice seriously and suspect that I didn't look up to her as much as my ENFP friend (she works as a Casino supervisor).



    edit: actually now I think about it a little more, I'm confused about the "strongly impose one's ideology or values on another", unless that refers to an unmentioned earlier scenario. If you're basing that on the conversation shown here, I don't blame her for being offended - she wasn't trying to impose anything, she was offering suggestions. I'd be offended if my friend was complaining, I offered possible solutions, and she told me I was trying to "strongly impose [my] ideology or values on [her]" and to be honest, I would probably have a similar reaction to your friend.

    In other words, if you're not going to say upfront "please don't give me ANY advice, I only want a shoulder to cry on" it's way out of line to get mad at her for offering advice just because you don't like the advice...
    She didn't just offer me career advice but also she really tries hard to make me think like her. She wants me to think that customer-serving industry has lots of merits and didn't quite understand why I try to steer away from that path. Her philosophy is that people shouldn't be choosy and just accept what's out there while I'm constantly fighting for finding a meaningful job because I don't see a point why people have to settle for something they're not passionate in.

    Actually my ENFP friend has already told her that it's probably for the best not to offer advice for me. Though she took it negatively saying that I didn't respect her as much as my ENFP friend because I happen to "agree" with my ENFP friend rather than her. I'm not sure if she felt bad because she had her own complex as she kept feeling that my ENFP friend and I are actually much closer (sometimes my ENFP friend won't even replied back to my ENTJ friend's SMS). Though I kind of feel that she is constantly trying to win my attention over my ENFP friend. *sigh*

  10. #10
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Awwww... you are welcome .

    Your ISFP mother is right and I agree with her. One should always keep an emotional distance even with the closest friends. Maybe this should especially be applied to blunt honesty about each other and feelings towards each other. I have best friends that I believe are cowardly unreliable pussies. But I do not tell them, knowing that honestly would hurt them and rip us apart.

    But you were stressed and it was only a brief moment of honest well deserved anger. This happens to everyone.

    Whatever happens from this moment onwards is your choice. So if your choice is to patch things up between the both of you I hope that all goes well between the both of you .

    Next time when you feel the need to be honest, just remember that maybe it is better (atleast according to my opinion) to be vague when it comes to potentially dangerous situations.

    I think it is for the best to give us both some time to think things through. Now I realized that I should've been vague like what you've suggested, even to best friends. I'm sure we'll patch things up as I kind of feel sorry about being too upfront about my judgement toward her.

    We'll see.

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