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  1. #11
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I keep thinking about this dynamic because it is rather pervasive throughout society. That approach to problem solving is even what medical doctors tend to use - problem is presented, they come up with a specific diagnosis with tests and medication. Then you have to try it before you reject it as not working. It doesn't work, so then once again, specific diagnosis and medication. Didn't work, another conclusion, etc. I don't care for that approach because it wastes a lot of energy and can be incredibly inefficient and cause much more hardship than more extended analysis before the conclusion would produce.

    What strikes me is that it is an approach that is communicated with more certitude than the process actually implies. I think alot of people approach problems in this way, so that even if they are relentless in their quick certitude, they deep down realize that once tried, it may fail.

    I've struggled with this also because it can feel incredibly patronizing. It suggests that the problem you present can be solved in 30 seconds and that you are not smart enough to have figured it out over a lifetime. When I have experienced relentless exchanges I have had to step back and realize that isn't necessarily the motivation, but still there are cases when certain topics in the end have to be avoided if people just aren't wired to communicate the same way about it.

    edit: and to answer the original question, it didn't strike me as rudeness, but as frustration. It is one of the most difficult miscommunications because when there is a personal problem that is hard to solve, there is already a lot of frustration over it, so the non-listening, commanding approach can be most difficult to be confronted with.
    Yes! I really get your point there. I do have to admit that I'm not good at watching others' emotions when I'm in stress mode. I suppose it has to do with the conflict that I have for Fe & Fi (They score the highest among my 8 cog functions). It has always been tricky for me to decide which perspective I have to depend upon during conflicts.

    I was just hoping that my ENTJ friend will understand me better so that unnecessary conflicts could be prevented happening again. Now I think I should keep an emotional distance and try not to expect too much on others for understanding who I am. Those who do will come naturally, I guess.

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    reading the convo, I cannot help but reflect back on how I offer help when presented with another's delimmas-I offer potential solutions:

    -Have you tried....
    -Maybe you could...
    -What about doing this....

    It is meant as a gesture of affection and caring, as if I did not care, I would not be listening in the first place. The emotional affirmation is almost innately understood to occur silently, with the result being a desire to offer potential solutions.

    I have learned over the years, that for certain types of people, you need to offer a shoulder to lean on, but not actually offer any suggestions, as they get offended and think you are trying to boss them around-odd as you are seeking to offer things you have learned over the years that they may not have been aware of.

    I think the OP convo was very reasonable until it mentioned imposition of idealogy. That was bit of a WTF turn to be a bit blunt. Then the cutting out of a number of topics felt like a very odd way handle the situation-if I couldnt be honest with a close friend, they would not be a close friend? It was also hurt quite a bit and feel like being rejected by the other person.

    I suspect you are seeing type based communication issues. Next time (as I commit the sin of telling you what to do) try saying:
    "I dont want to do those things. I want to do what I want to do because I enjoy it or feel uncomfortable not doing it. I recognize your suggestion of "X" is a good one, and I realize you care, but it isnt that path I want to take right now. I love you, but seriously quit harping on me about it."

    This is an Fi foot stomp to push a caring Te user back a few steps and regain your personal space.

    (But no-you were not being mean, just following your innate communication patterns and hit a bit of a misunderstanding)

  3. #13
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I felt kind of sad when I read this as, frankly, it brings back some bad memories.

    I have faced these kinds of situations. Feeling judged, but then possibly unloading too much on people at one go, and too bluntly/pointedly. Telling them that you just have to rule out some topics entirely, and them taking it as an entire rejection.

    It's hard for me to know what to say. On one hand, you felt frustrated and what you did in response was be honest/speak the truth. On the other hand, perhaps you could have been more tactful, or let out your frustration a bit more gradually...and I don't say that to be judgmental myself; I say it because I've done exactly the same sorts of things and then second guessed myself for months or years...

    I think it has a lot to do with your past dynamics and interactions with the other person. If you want to maintain the friendship you may need to do something like apologise for being too hard on them/possibly a bit judgmental yourself, but also make it clear (tactfully) that you felt misunderstood and judged by them. If that is possible... And again, I have faced such situations. It's very hard.

    With some people, even if you still care deeply about them, you ultimately realise that you do have to keep a bit more distance or just be vaguely cheerful or change the subject whenever they bring certain things up.

    Communication (or I should say miscommunication) issues are a bugger.
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  4. #14
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think the OP convo was very reasonable until it mentioned imposition of idealogy. That was bit of a WTF turn to be a bit blunt. Then the cutting out of a number of topics felt like a very odd way handle the situation-if I couldnt be honest with a close friend, they would not be a close friend? It was also hurt quite a bit and feel like being rejected by the other person.
    Yes, you're right. After posting this thread, I realized I did come out too blunt toward her. Though I was also hurt by her last statement as I really didn't intend to upset her. I think it's for the best that we both need some time and space between us for the time being.

    I suspect you are seeing type based communication issues. Next time (as I commit the sin of telling you what to do) try saying:
    "I dont want to do those things. I want to do what I want to do because I enjoy it or feel uncomfortable not doing it. I recognize your suggestion of "X" is a good one, and I realize you care, but it isnt that path I want to take right now. I love you, but seriously quit harping on me about it."

    This is an Fi foot stomp to push a caring Te user back a few steps and regain your personal space.
    I'll try this again. Though I'm sure she'll use my ENFP friend for comparison as I honestly felt she wanted both of my ENFP and I take her opinions more seriously. Unfortunately neither of us felt that way. She's always fun to be around with as she's quite charismatic. It's just that whenever it comes to heavy discussion, she couldn't seem to accept that we didn't take her opinion seriously. There's also a hint of jealousy factor as she tend to get jealous of others, especially among her close friends if we didn't split the equal amount of attention with her.

    (But no-you were not being mean, just following your innate communication patterns and hit a bit of a misunderstanding)
    Thanks for reassuring this with me. Now I realized there are so much for me to learn in order to delivery my message properly without inflicting any negativity toward the other party. Thanks for your tips on this!


    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post

    I have faced these kinds of situations. Feeling judged, but then possibly unloading too much on people at one go, and too bluntly/pointedly. Telling them that you just have to rule out some topics entirely, and them taking it as an entire rejection.
    Sometimes I wonder if I'm taking this issue too seriously. I have no problem in accepting constructive criticism (with my ENFP friend in particular) but I definitely have zero patience when I felt I "had" to agree with someone just because it fits their logic but not in line with my own.

    It's hard for me to know what to say. On one hand, you felt frustrated and what you did in response was be honest/speak the truth. On the other hand, perhaps you could have been more tactful, or let out your frustration a bit more gradually...and I don't say that to be judgmental myself; I say it because I've done exactly the same sorts of things and then second guessed myself for months or years...
    I totally understand your POV. I've always felt I should be as honest as I can toward people who are important to me. Though now I know my weakness lies on the delivery and I should have expressed my feelings more vaguely--something which my ENFP friend advised me to do when dealing with her.


    I think it has a lot to do with your past dynamics and interactions with the other person. If you want to maintain the friendship you may need to do something like apologise for being too hard on them/possibly a bit judgmental yourself, but also make it clear (tactfully) that you felt misunderstood and judged by them. If that is possible... And again, I have faced such situations. It's very hard.
    Actually my ENTJ friend has been great to me. We both went through thick and thin and helped each other to go through difficult phases. The only problem is that she has this "motherly" nature and sometimes took things too seriously. And she would even try to fish information from me just to verify if my ENFP friend has been keeping in contact with me when she ignored my ENTJ friends SMS. I don't think this is type related, but I felt she had worn me out lately...

    With some people, even if you still care deeply about them, you ultimately realise that you do have to keep a bit more distance or just be vaguely cheerful or change the subject whenever they bring certain things up.

    Communication (or I should say miscommunication) issues are a bugger.
    I used to keep a distance with almost everybody because I am not really great at small talks. I also felt that conversation seem to be much more meaningful if I haven't keep in close contact with my friends as there are more interesting things to talk about. Though I haven't done that to people who I consider as BFF, now I think I should do that in order to avoid unnecessary miscommunication.

    Thanks for sharing with your experience btw!

  5. #15
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    In my experience T-dom types are built to solve problems. Think about how you would feel if you had a friend with a problem where the solution might possibly be right up your alley of talents, and that person rejected your version of helping?

    I use typology as a way to help make my relationships smoother. I know that if I want to just have a shoulder to cry on, I will contact one of my xNFJ or xNFP friends and say "I am having a horrible day and I just need to vent and cry and get it off my chest." Then they know that all they have to do is listen and offer a hug or something. If I want to cry about my problems but get a solution for them at the same time, then I contact one of my T friends. I have a couple INTX friends and family that are excellent for this. They don't want to deal with my tears, they want to help me see a way out of my situation.

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I won't reiterate what's here already - I know you didn't mean for it to sound rude, but because you asked, to my ears it does sound a bit harsh. In the most condensed way I can think of, it's like saying the thing she does best (problem-solving) is of no value to you. Her baby Fi might hear your statement "Your current problem-solving is of no value to me" as "You are of no value to me".

    It's ironic that probably when she vents she wants you to offer solutions, not a shoulder. Something to consider ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    Crescent: Of course, but I don't have any capital for that now. My priority right now is to land a perm job and networking.
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    : Those trendy kitchenware, home deco stuff on Robson [a main shopping district in Vancouver]. Why did you ask?
    Apologies for another solutions-based approach, but it's very possible to start an online drop-shipping business (of kitchenware and tons of other products) for an extremely modest capital outlay. If you are interested in more info on how to do it, PM and I will send you some links. Apologies for mentioning it though if inappropriate.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    When people see some things as good,
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  7. #17
    Junior Member alisonrach's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't think it was an issue of what was said. It seems to be how it was said and under what circumstance. Your friend was obviously trying to help you, however, because it seemed that everything you said you had been thinking for too long then came out all at once. This isn't fair to do to anyone in your life. They were probably extremely unsuspected that they wore you out so much so when you told them that they were probably deeply hurt. This happens very often with me because I protect people's feelings for so long then I reach a point where I can't take anymore. When honesty finally comes out it can be shocking to the people in your life. I absolutely see why your friend was so hurt. And it really isn't fair to make the decision to not talk about your career with your friend anymore without your friend being able to respond to your considering it. Your friend would have responded much better had you said what upset you, then let your friend try to help with the solution rather than you making the solution without their input.

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