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  1. #11
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    This happened to me with an ISFJ, ISTJ and ESTJ I dated. Everything was great except that 1 bit of POW! Learn to let it go and find it in other things, or do something about it.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #12
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    sorry to intrude with an unhelpful comment, but this thread kinda horrifies me. It would be so hurtful to find out that a longterm-ish partner felt like that about you (if I'm interpreting it correctly, anyway). That said, since this is your first serious relationship, it's possible that you could be thinking of an idealized sort of "mindmeld" that is impossible to actually achieve in the real world - just something to think about. I'm not trolling, I swear.

    *backs away from thread slowly*
    -end of thread-

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    sorry to intrude with an unhelpful comment, but this thread kinda horrifies me. It would be so hurtful to find out that a longterm-ish partner felt like that about you (if I'm interpreting it correctly, anyway). That said, since this is your first serious relationship, it's possible that you could be thinking of an idealized sort of "mindmeld" that is impossible to actually achieve in the real world - just something to think about. I'm not trolling, I swear. *backs away from thread slowly*
    It's an odd topic because we're all fishing around in the dark with nothing but our own instincts to guide us -- so while one partner might feel completely fulfilled if their standards are met, another might not feel like the relationship fits what they need. And then one is left trying to determine whether those needs and wants are legitimate and fair, vs needs that will be destructive to the relationship if they are prioritized.

    I remember having a really hard time with my SJ for all those years. I felt like if I conformed to the role expectations for the relationship and the "workmate" character, then my partner would be very happy... but I knew at the same time I'd feel (and did feel) miserable because I needed more than that... kind of a quasi-NT/NF transcendence/depth in the relationship. It's very hard to set such a desire aside, even if one is trying to be realistic, because realistically the fact was that I was very unhappy and did not feel like we were connected even if my spouse would have felt like we were.

    Something happened along the way, though, where I decided that our common history and the experiences we had shared in life made the relationship one that I did not want to quit, and after that point, things got much better for me. The marriage did eventually end for other reasons, but we still have a deep relationship based on the way we grew together all those years. I can't really explain what it feels like or how it happened, though; my ex is still very much S in life approach, and I'm very much N, yet somehow we found common ground that did not feel like a compromise or that something was missing.

    I wish I could be more help.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    I think you're right (on bolded text) that everyone has this side of them, though it's relatively easier for NFs to explore this. It might takes some time and effort to elicit SJs on the same mental plane as yours.

    Though isn't that the fun aspect of this union? I thought love is supposed to be challenging (and sometimes struggles) and it's all part of learning process. You don't have to lower your expectation on spirituality from him, though you can lessen your expectation by guiding and taking him to the this level gradually. What's more important is that perhaps he'll teach you how to be more grounded and focus on the practial side and appreciate to cherish the present intimacy?

    What I'm trying to say is, usually it takes endless patience to discover that subtle connection. I think most NFs come out strongly in the beginning when they're involved in a new relationship through idealization; whereas SJs tend to grow stronger as they have a more grounded approach in romance. Just try to expect less from him at this moment, so that there will be an opportunity for him to surprise you!



    Maybe he didn't express his depth of soul because he is learning this from you and wasn't able to express it accordingly. Somehow I think it is important to consider that the principle of diverse love is to recognize you are not the only individual in the cosmos, that all around you are other individuals, other souls, other Human beings, have different perception of the spiritual world. They are different from you and not you, yet you must communicate with them and understand them. Once you conquered it, that's when love become much more meaningful and precious.

    Just take it easy, skylights, I'm sure things will only be better!
    i love these points, crescent. thank you so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by River View Post
    if you think of your mind, your inner being as a castle with some scary parts in a deep relationship people can make more sense.

    I love my nf dearly but it took a few years for me lo let him take my hand and wander some beautifully scary parts of my self.
    Some parts are easily accessible, others require thought, trial and lots of error. But if you are determined, keep trying. Just avoid blame. After all, if he were dating a cute little isfj this wouldn't be a problem xD
    !

    Consider what you really want to voice and what response you would like from him. Find multiple ways of saying the right thing. Over the next six months ask. Gently, non threateningly and without shown consequence if the outcome is not desirable. Then reassess the situation.

    Good luck
    thank you... i hadn't really stopped to think that this could be hard or confusing or even undesirable to him because it is one of the most easy and natural and exciting things to me. excellent points. i will try what you have suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodsWoman View Post
    Look into Love languages. Knowing how each of you receives messages of love the strongest can be very enlightening. Good luck!
    cool, will read. thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    This happened to me with an ISFJ, ISTJ and ESTJ I dated. Everything was great except that 1 bit of POW! Learn to let it go and find it in other things, or do something about it.
    ah, interesting to know. you are right, can't hang in whiney limbo

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    sorry to intrude with an unhelpful comment, but this thread kinda horrifies me. It would be so hurtful to find out that a longterm-ish partner felt like that about you (if I'm interpreting it correctly, anyway). That said, since this is your first serious relationship, it's possible that you could be thinking of an idealized sort of "mindmeld" that is impossible to actually achieve in the real world - just something to think about. I'm not trolling, I swear.

    *backs away from thread slowly*
    at first i wrote something self-apologetic here, but i've decided i'm not really sorry. i don't know why it's horrific. this is my first ever serious (as in, i could see myself in this one for life) relationship and i'm asking for help from people who have been in relationships before because i'm head over heels in love with my partner and i don't want to screw us both over for life. when writing the OP, i was scared that he and i had a communication gap that could be permanent and damaging to us both. i have experienced lightning-swift connections with people, even on this site. it's not unrealistic or idealized.

    the people who have been kind enough to post positive and understanding things to me have helped me see that's not a predictor of doom for my relationship and that i probably have some blind spots of my own.

    it has since occurred to me that the connection i have been talking about is a Ni-Ne connection. i previously had an intense relationship with a Ni user and i think sometimes i feel the absence of that Ni-Ne dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's an odd topic because we're all fishing around in the dark with nothing but our own instincts to guide us -- so while one partner might feel completely fulfilled if their standards are met, another might not feel like the relationship fits what they need. And then one is left trying to determine whether those needs and wants are legitimate and fair, vs needs that will be destructive to the relationship if they are prioritized.

    I remember having a really hard time with my SJ for all those years. I felt like if I conformed to the role expectations for the relationship and the "workmate" character, then my partner would be very happy... but I knew at the same time I'd feel (and did feel) miserable because I needed more than that... kind of a quasi-NT/NF transcendence/depth in the relationship. It's very hard to set such a desire aside, even if one is trying to be realistic, because realistically the fact was that I was very unhappy and did not feel like we were connected even if my spouse would have felt like we were.

    Something happened along the way, though, where I decided that our common history and the experiences we had shared in life made the relationship one that I did not want to quit, and after that point, things got much better for me. The marriage did eventually end for other reasons, but we still have a deep relationship based on the way we grew together all those years. I can't really explain what it feels like or how it happened, though; my ex is still very much S in life approach, and I'm very much N, yet somehow we found common ground that did not feel like a compromise or that something was missing.

    I wish I could be more help.
    thank you, jennifer. that's plenty help in itself. i just need to know that this feeling can and will pass - that it's something that can be overcome and not something i will spend a lifetime regretting. i suppose in some ways it's horrifically selfish of me to say that but it's also my life and i don't want to spend it feeling unfulfilled. and i don't want to spend his life letting him think that he has a fully committed partner when he does not.
    Last edited by skylights; 01-18-2012 at 01:32 AM.

  5. #15
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Oh dear, I didn't save the OP and now, hmmm, I did make some notes so I'll just expand on some thoughts:

    I was married at 21 and it's not hard for me to recall the kinds of "disappointments" I felt with my hubs in the first few years. There were lots of good things - he was so funny and we had great chemistry and he was so dedicated and a good provider and a good father to our kids. Yet it would itch at me that he wasn't generally romantic, he didn't know intuitively when I needed a hug, he didn't instinctively read or respond to my feeling interior, things that touched me emotionally he seemed oblivious to at times ... stuff like that. I would feel bad that some of that stuff niggled at my mind, like I just wanted him to "know" what I needed without me saying a word. What I came to realize is that you don't marry someone thinking they will be able to magically complete you - you marry someone to be a partner on this wonderful journey together.

    We tend to look at our lives as a snapshot in time as opposed to this journey of togetherness and we tend to look at our partners as being the one thing that will "complete" us rather than someone who is as imperfect as us. My strengths are his weakness, and vice versa - to me it seems we balance what the other needs most, and that's what keeps us strong as a couple.

    I don't need to look in a mirror and see myself in it; I need someone who can reflect me to myself.

    -----

    Here are some things I know:

    It doesn't matter if he can read my mind - what matters is that he cares what's on my mind.

    It doesn't matter if he doesn't think the same way I do about every moment - what matters is that we share what we think and grow from our unique perspectives.

    It doesn't matter if I sometimes need to ask for a hug - it matters that whenever I need one, he is there offering it freely.

    It doesn't even matter if he's grumpy sometimes - it's kind of a pleasure to listen to him grump away because I know that means he feels comfortable to share his thoughts with me. And I get to help with those too.

    -----

    Some more thoughts, no particular order:

    1.) There's a sense of security in the match, plus you're a 6, the shared Si, the sharing of tradition - it will build and build upon your years of union and bring you much happiness and satisfaction over time.

    2.) For many STJ's there's almost an Ne-fear, the difficulty for Te to let go and trust a leap of faith - Te will almost always overrule Ne's impulse and you can be a helpful guide to such a thing. You will likely be far more open to taking risks.

    3.) That being said, his Te will be hard to ignore when you "know" that the less logical thing is the right thing to do. You'll have to do some extra due diligence to step out in confidence on your Ne path. It will help him if you can make a plan or articulate some logic he will feel comfortable to follow.

    4.) As you grow older together, you will complement each other's growth pattern - you into Te-Si, he into Ne-Fi. It's kind of fun actually.

    5.) Still very athletic and energetic, if you catch my drift.

    -----

    Good stuff about ESTJ's:

    They don't play any kind of game. They just are what they are. Sincerity personified.

    Anyhoodle, that's some random stuff and now I am not sure how to cogently make it smooth with the OP gone - BUT, I sincerely hope you find it useful.

    As always,
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
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    Likes OrderOfTheCaelifera, Scorpinfp liked this post

  6. #16
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    I’m married to an ESTJ and it will be ten years this year. I didn't see the OP, but here are some thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I remember having a really hard time with my SJ for all those years. I felt like if I conformed to the role expectations for the relationship and the "workmate" character, then my partner would be very happy... but I knew at the same time I'd feel (and did feel) miserable because I needed more than that... kind of a quasi-NT/NF transcendence/depth in the relationship. It's very hard to set such a desire aside, even if one is trying to be realistic, because realistically the fact was that I was very unhappy and did not feel like we were connected even if my spouse would have felt like we were.
    I think it is indeed an N/S thing. In my experience an SJ needs far less connection, and their concept of connection is often very different. I think honestly one must realize they are indeed very different creatures and there really is a limit to how much an N can realistically expect an S to understand them. This can be a good thing, as they offer a simplicity that can be refreshing in that it is very low-maintenance.

    One’s instinctual stacking will also affect it. My SJ is also sp/so, which adds another dimension to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Something happened along the way, though, where I decided that our common history and the experiences we had shared in life made the relationship one that I did not want to quit, and after that point, things got much better for me. The marriage did eventually end for other reasons, but we still have a deep relationship based on the way we grew together all those years. I can't really explain what it feels like or how it happened, though; my ex is still very much S in life approach, and I'm very much N, yet somehow we found common ground that did not feel like a compromise or that something was missing.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    I think you're right (on bolded text) that everyone has this side of them, though it's relatively easier for NFs to explore this. It might takes some time and effort to elicit SJs on the same mental plane as yours.

    Though isn't that the fun aspect of this union? I thought love is supposed to be challenging (and sometimes struggles) and it's all part of learning process. You don't have to lower your expectation on spirituality from him, though you can lessen your expectation by guiding and taking him to the this level gradually. What's more important is that perhaps he'll teach you how to be more grounded and focus on the practial side and appreciate to cherish the present intimacy?
    I agree in some respects…but I’d be very careful with this. Yes I believe all people have levels to them, but I also think there are some fundamental differences between people in the area of personality, and I’d caution against going into it with the expectation that at some point you’ll dig deep enough to find that magical N side that was hidden the whole time, because what that essentially is is a Pygmalion Project and disappointment is sure to be the result. Love means accepting and appreciating the person for who they are, not who we want them to be. And trying to force our own foreign idea of connection and N-level depth onto a confused partner has more potential to harm the relationship than anything else. I know with my SJ he reaches a certain point where he just doesn't want to go any farther, because he doesn't have anything past that level himself, so if you do, it freaks him out a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    What I'm trying to say is, usually it takes endless patience to discover that subtle connection. I think most NFs come out strongly in the beginning when they're involved in a new relationship through idealization; whereas SJs tend to grow stronger as they have a more grounded approach in romance. Just try to expect less from him at this moment, so that there will be an opportunity for him to surprise you! :
    This is definitely true about SJs. We are closer now after ten years together than we were when we got married because as an SJ his connection grew stronger over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    This happened to me with an ISFJ, ISTJ and ESTJ I dated. Everything was great except that 1 bit of POW! Learn to let it go and find it in other things, or do something about it.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    the people who have been kind enough to post positive and understanding things to me have helped me see that's not a predictor of doom for my relationship and that i probably have some blind spots of my own.
    Yes. Ns frequently lack certain things that SJs would like them to have as well. And no, your relationship is never doomed.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it has since occurred to me that the connection i have been talking about is a Ni-Ne connection. i previously had an intense relationship with a Ni user and i think sometimes i feel the absence of that Ni-Ne dynamic. .
    Yeah… this can be really hard to grieve the loss of..

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    thank you, jennifer. that's plenty help in itself. i just need to know that this feeling can and will pass - that it's something that can be overcome and not something i will spend a lifetime regretting. i suppose in some ways it's horrifically selfish of me to say that but it's also my life and i don't want to spend it feeling unfulfilled. and i don't want to spend his life letting him think that he has a fully committed partner when he does not.
    1. It does pass.
    2. Commitment is an absolute concept, and a decision. You’re either committed or not. Make a decision and stick with it. Definitely don’t let him think you are if you’re not. Choose your love, love your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What I came to realize is that you don't marry someone thinking they will be able to magically complete you - you marry someone to be a partner on this wonderful journey together. :
    She’s absolutely right. Marriage is not about what that person can do for you, it’s about what you are willing to do for that person and pledging to be their partner in life. Yes they are making the same promise, but you have to go into it with the understanding that you’re not responsible for their behavior – you’re responsible for yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It doesn't even matter if he's grumpy sometimes - it's kind of a pleasure to listen to him grump away because I know that means he feels comfortable to share his thoughts with me. And I get to help with those too.:
    I know right!!! I always find it an honor that he finds me safe enough to express anger or sadness or pain to. So precious.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    3.) That being said, his Te will be hard to ignore when you "know" that the less logical thing is the right thing to do. You'll have to do some extra due diligence to step out in confidence on your Ne path. It will help him if you can make a plan or articulate some logic he will feel comfortable to follow. :
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Good stuff about ESTJ's:

    They don't play any kind of game. They just are what they are. Sincerity personified.
    This is what I appreciate the most about my ESTJ. Everything – the good, the bad, he lets it all hang out. I can work with and flourish with that. Whatever reality is, even if very bad, I can face it and deal with it and work with it but in order to do that I first need to know about it, and I do with him. He never hides anything from me and that is what I adore the most about him.

    He's also hilarious. Can have crowds rolling on the floor.
    Last edited by Mia.; 05-15-2012 at 07:11 AM.

  7. #17
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    In my experience an SJ needs far less connection, and their concept of connection is often very different. I think honestly one must realize they are indeed very different creatures and there really is a limit to how much an N can realistically expect an S to understand them. This can be a good thing, as they offer a simplicity that can be refreshing in that it is very low-maintenance.
    I think this is very true.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Just a random comment on @mia's post it seems like the level of desiring connection is more like this to me in>is>en>es and nf>sf>nt>st and fj>fp>tj>tp and nj>sj>np>sp and if>ef>et>it
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Just a random comment on @mia's post it seems like the level of desiring connection is more like this to me in>is>en>es and nf>sf>nt>st and fj>fp>tj>tp and nj>sj>np>sp and if>ef>et>it
    I dunno man.... I think it goes IN>EN>IS>ES, NF>NT>SF>ST, with the rest being equal. In my experience NTs crave connection way more than SFs do. Connection is different from F preference. The three people who have really known and understood me at the deepest levels (and visa versa) were all NT (not counting my INFJ mother). I really do think it is an N/S thing. I know and understand my ESTJ very well, but it is much more limited the other way around simply because he doesn't have that drive/motivation or intrinsic hardware.

    And of course, being sx primary will influence it as well.

  10. #20
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    I dunno man.... I think it goes IN>EN>IS>ES, NF>NT>SF>ST, with the rest being equal. In my experience NTs crave connection way more than SFs do. Connection is different from F preference. The three people who have really known and understood me at the deepest levels (and visa versa) were all NT (not counting my INFJ mother). I really do think it is an N/S thing. I know and understand my ESTJ very well, but it is much more limited the other way around simply because he doesn't have that drive/motivation or intrinsic hardware.

    And of course, being sx primary will influence it as well.
    Thought you'd be like ''omg dood, those are stereotypes, my ESTJ husband craves connection more than anyone in the world''.
    That said, your post seems pretty reliable.
    Doesn't that affect you much?
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