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  1. #11
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I suspect this has more to do with instinct variant than it does mbti.
    Agreed.
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  2. #12
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Your examples seem less like Fe, more like failure at logic @Orobas. Obviously I'm not a Fe dom and I have a higher preference for Ti but they both seem to be pushing their personal (and illogical without more information/context) views on another person without simple logic to back them up.

    Unless there is more context behind the first scenario that we don't know about then I suspect SubtleFighter is correct in thinking Si/Ni may be at play here and has been used to determine meaning where I can see none. Some fail-jumps in logic have been used.

    I can understand the second scenario better, but as a corporation cannot have loyalty, only people can, the INFJ simply comes across as naïve. It isn't the most uncommon view to hold though.

  3. #13
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Subtle Fighter's description resonates with me a lot. I see people as individuals, groups within the group, and part of the larger group as a whole. The balance of all of those things is important to me. Therefore, stating that Fe users value the large group over the individual in every case, seems like both an oversimplification and a generalization that isn't accurate.

    I usually would not choose to be a part of a group that included foundational aspects which I could not align with. If it did, I'd probably find myself a new group. However, in the instance of work for me - I often find myself disagreeing philosophically with leadership that has not thought out what they believe and are inconsistent in their decision making. In that case, I may continue working for them if I still can maintain my own separate domain somewhere and not have to sacrifice what is important to me or if I feel I can influence their perspective. If neither can happen, I am likely to move on or try to develop a new position that would allow me to do my own thing. The amount that I identify with a particular group is pretty dependent on how much that group aligns or represents my own basic identity. If it does, then I will feel criticism of the group more personally because I have a big stake in it and it represents what is important to me. If I feel like a fairly distinct entity within a loose group that I can work within, then it doesn't really matter to me what is said.

    I don't really identify with either of the two examples given as being Fe though. I think they are individual things, more than being characteristic of a particular function.

  4. #14
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really identify with either of the two examples given as being Fe though. I think they are individual things, more than being characteristic of a particular function.
    Me neither. When people say "criticize the president of the US and you are criticizing US soldiers" that's a far leap for me. That's more of a Republican/old-school patriotic political view as well as an acculturated thing rather than a cognitive function expressing itself.

    As for "you owe all your success to the company" there may be more the viewpoint, perhaps "you are a loose cannon and easily could have been fired but it is only through the wisdom and charity of the elders in this company that they overlooked your shortcomings and valued your contributions".
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  5. #15
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    The examples are kinda hive mentality, don't you think? In a Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated kinda way. That's why you need the WTF factor of ti/fi, for noticing intellectual and emotional incongruence.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I suspect this has more to do with instinct variant than it does mbti.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Agreed.
    Can you guys elaborate? Do you mean the "so" varient?

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    so another example:

    My friend and I worked on a very large project together. At the end of the project, I wanted to give awards to the top 5% team members- a few folks who had given up everything to make the project a go. The above and beyond folks.

    She felt, instead that a much larger percentage of folks should get awards-like 40% or so, and that was split into functional groups, like the QA group or the chemistry R&D group for heroic team effort.

    However another person, who was working on preparing the awards, ended up giving everyone-a full 183 people-an award and did not call out any specific individuals or groups.

    What would you have felt was the best way to reward a group of this sort? (No wrong answers at all ) (I'll also add to the OP)

  8. #18
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    The way that Fe-users* see themselves and others is that I'm an entity, everyone else in the group are individual entities, the group itself is an entity, and there are subgroups within the major group that are entities as well. These are different perspectives to see groups of people from, and they're all valid. Fe has a tendency to reinforce a process of merging between people in a group, but not because it doesn't see people as individuals, but because they also see the group as an entity as well. This can be seen even on a basis between an Fe-user and one person they want to form a relationship with. This is actually something that I use to judge whether a person is an Fe or Fi-user--if they totally miss my cues in trying to "merge" as a two-person 'friendship entity' (this sounds really weird, but I'm trying to be consistent with the terms I'm using), then they're probably an Fi-user.
    Thank you so much subtlefighter-I am enjoying reading all of the ideas and responses, but I did want to mention that I identify a bit with this first part-but I see it from a Te angle....substitute team for group, I think...I dunno, I never really felt like this before this job, but the notion of being both part of the team, but also an individual, but having sub teams, I recognize-however I dont at all recognize the friendship entity, LOL, but I do recognize what I call the "share-the-yoke" entity. I dont have to like these people, or even be nice....oddly, even if we are friends, we each stop being friendly, when it is time to "share-the-yoke" and be serious about a task.

    Thank you all very much for all your thoughts and commentary!!

  9. #19
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    so another example:

    My friend and I worked on a very large project together. At the end of the project, I wanted to give awards to the top 5% team members- a few folks who had given up everything to make the project a go. The above and beyond folks.

    She felt, instead that a much larger percentage of folks should get awards-like 40% or so, and that was split into functional groups, like the QA group or the chemistry R&D group for heroic team effort.

    However another person, who was working on preparing the awards, ended up giving everyone-a full 183 people-an award and did not call out any specific individuals or groups.

    What would you have felt was the best way to reward a group of this sort? (No wrong answers at all ) (I'll also add to the OP)
    Best way would be not to incorporate 'awards' at all in a project-level scenario.

    Any quarterly or annual company-wide award programs could be used, and high-performing indiv's or teams on this particular project could have their project work documented as the reason for them getting nominated for the company-wide award.

    Giving an award out to each of 183 contributors is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of an award. If I knew I was one of 183 people who got an award, I wouldn't care about it.

    Simple solution is to send out a general communication to the entire group, thanking everyone for their hard work and acknowledging it was through the effort of all that the project was a success. Then highlight specific groups who probably contributed more than others / had more of a time commitment than others, and then finally highlight specific individuals who may have gone above and beyond.

    I think it's a given that in any large endeavor, there are a lot of players, with varying levels of contribution/effort. And it's a fact that some people put in way more work than others. It doesn't take away from what the others do, but it simply means more is required of some than others, based on their knowledge/skills or whatever. The person who spends 1 hour total on something shouldn't get the same level of recognition as the person who spends 8 hrs/day for 3 months. Etc.
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  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    How do you relate your own individuality to the groups you interact with?
    I can see the group entity as well as my individual entity, but my individual entity always has very clear bounds which never disappear. I am part of the group entity to the extent that my individuality overlaps with the group identity and purpose. My identification with groups is thus only partial, and there is much I hold back.

    Do you ever seem to sacrifice individuality to the group?
    I may go along with superficial customs just to get along, but I rarely sacrifice individuality on important matters. As others have pointed out, I try to find groups that overlap with my interests and objectives. Then, in pursuing my own interests I am supporting the group, and vice versa. Work is a good example of this, as is religion.

    Do you take critique of the group as critique of yourself?
    Only to the degree that I identify with the group, and the criticism is accurate.

    Do you take critique of the figurehead as critique of yourself or others?
    Generally no.

    Do you note individuals or groups as having a stronger effect upon your successes?
    This is a tough one. I can identify both individuals and groups that have affected my success. If groups can include institutions, though (schools, workplaces), I would give a slight edge to groups. The influence of an individual can be much stronger than that of a group, but it is often limited either in extent (what facet of one's life it impacts), or time (individuals move, transfer, get busy, etc.) I have tried therefore to associate myself with groups that are established and have depth such that if a mentoring boss/professor or supportive colleague/classmate moves on, I can find others to work with.

    (This is a bit like the question of whether scientific advances are due more to individuals ["great men of science"] or the societies which produced them.)

    What would you have felt was the best way to reward a group of this sort? (No wrong answers at all ) (I'll also odd to the OP)
    I, too, would dispense with the awards, and let the performance of the stellar few be counted in their favor in competing for raises, promotions, training opportunities, etc. My organization is big on very visible awards, but many of us find it a joke. There is a certain political correctness to the awards system that encourages, for instance, spreading them around the organization. I have received awards for high-profile activities that took rather limited time and effort, while the bulk of my work which has also been successful goes unnoticed -- until performance review time, which is more important to me anyway.
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