[INFJ] INFJs and Single-Mindedness

[Motor Jax]

i get told i am pretty defensive also

even worse when it is a certain person is involved also

 

[Thursday]

i get told i'm sassy and catty
is defensiveness the same thing ?

 

[tovlo]

My room mate does this a lot and won't listen to my arguments just dismiss them. If I can get her to listen I can usually get her to see my POV using logic based on my observations in the world.

On what basis do you judge that she's not listening to your arguments?

Based on your words here, I wonder if judgement of someone having listened to you only comes once they express agreement with your POV.

Also she tends to give me advice on how to do something and she thinks just because it will work for her means it will work for me.

I'm sorry for this experience. I respond poorly to others forcing their experience on me as well.

 

[prplchknz]

On what basis do you judge that she's not listening to your arguments?

Based on your words here, I wonder if judgement of someone having listened to you only comes once they express agreement with your POV.

That's not the case at all. I'm not asking her to agree, it's just I feel like she shuts me off before I have the chance to explain. I listen, if anything that's my flaw, I'm too willing to listen to other people even if I think they're full of shit, I just want the same, I mean I could be full of shit but let me realize that in my own time.

 

[tovlo]

I'm wondering how other INFJs deal with becoming defensive like described in the original post. Once I feel very hurt by someone I can't really get rid of the defensiveness with that particular person. A wall just goes up and that's it. It's definitely a hindrance in developing relationships.

My walls go up quickly and usually come down just as quickly.

I've never had a situation where they haven't come down again, but the more often my wall-building is triggered with a person, the more quickly the walls go up and the more difficult they are to dismantle.

I've learned to consciously keep myself open more often though. I choose to remain open to the vulnerability and humanness of the person I'm interacting with and accept their expression as presented as much as I can, even when I feel uncomfortable or vulnerable in it.

I'm not always successful and sometimes it's ill-advised to remain that open for protective reasons, but I think perhaps my own trigger for self-protection is more sensitive than the actual threat present in my environment would warrant.

I'm stronger than I think, even without the defensive walls.

But mostly I'm still a wall-builder. I'm just getting better at quickly tearing them down.

 

[tovlo]

That's not the case at all. I'm not asking her to agree, it's just I feel like she shuts me off before I have the chance to explain. I listen, if anything that's my flaw, I'm too willing to listen to other people even if I think they're full of shit, I just want the same, I mean I could be full of shit but let me realize that in my own time.

So then, on what basis do you judge you've not been listened to?

 

[prplchknz]

So then, on what basis do you judge you've not been listened to?

I get interupted/ cut off.

 

[tovlo]

I get interupted/ cut off.

That would be frustrating. I'm learning that no matter how you are experiencing someone's expression internally, they are most able to understand you as having received them if you respond and relay back to them in some form what you've heard. I am truly sorry that your expression is meeting with that kind of rebuttal. It must feel like a rejection of sorts.

I'm guessing based on my own self-awareness, that for some reason your roommate feels threatened by your expression, and likely because of her own vulnerability to other's perspectives, feels it necessary to cut your expression off before it can affect her. I could be wrong, but when I've personally behaved in a way that cut off other's expression before they could even fully express that was what was going on inside me.

I hope that maybe my offer of personal experience can offer you something to understand her vulnerabilities a bit better and not take her rejection of your expression personally, but rather see it as an expression of her own vulnerability.

In any case, I'm sorry for your experience. I've been on the other side of not having my expression received and it feels awful.

 

[prplchknz]

That would be frustrating. I'm learning that no matter how you are experiencing someone's expression internally, they are most able to understand you as having received them if you respond and relay back to them in some form what you've heard. I am truly sorry that your expression is meeting with that kind of rebuttal. It must feel like a rejection of sorts.

I'm guessing based on my own self-awareness, that for some reason your roommate feels threatened by your expression, and likely because of her own vulnerability to other's perspectives, feels it necessary to cut your expression off before it can affect her. I could be wrong, but when I've personally behaved in a way that cut off other's expression before they could even fully express that was what was going on inside me.

I hope that maybe my offer of personal experience can offer you something to understand her vulnerabilities a bit better and not take her rejection of your expression personally, but rather see it as an expression of her own vulnerability.

In any case, I'm sorry for your experience. I've been on the other side of not having my expression received and it feels awful.

Though I remember one time I told her that if I ever fell from a high place I'd imagine the ground was rubber and she just laughed and said I was crazy and no one else would think that.And then I wanted to explain myself she told me to be quiet. Later on I was able to explain how i came to this conclusion.(Like 3-4 hours later)
1.)The whole idea of mind over matter maybe I could convince myself it doesn't hurt too bad.
2.)If it does hurt, it will be so much worse making me angrier and therefore giving me the motivation to hang on to life and go after the person whose fault it was. Besides I'd probably end up being to lazy to do anything really but I will get to live so I win. It's like when you take a sip of coffee expecting it to be hot chocolate.

I don't know if she was humoring me or what but once I explained myself she said that it actually made sense.

So maybe when I say what seems totally random to others even though I've been thinking about it for days even weeks. I need to give the other person time to process.

 

[cafe]

I'm wondering how other INFJs deal with becoming defensive like described in the original post. Once I feel very hurt by someone I can't really get rid of the defensiveness with that particular person. A wall just goes up and that's it. It's definitely a hindrance in developing relationships.

It really depends on context with me.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

i get told i am pretty defensive also
...

How does that make you feel?

That's one thing that might make me feel a little defensive.

them: You seem defensive
me: howso?
them: You just seem angry
me: No, I'm really not. I'm not the type to get defensive.
them: Really? I thought all INFJs were defensive
me: That's a stereotype. It doesn't mean that I'm defensive.
them: Yeah, but it does imply...
me: Just listen and don't impose your own assumptions on me. I'm not defensive! Why are you judging me?
them: See, you are very defensive. I rest my case.
me:

 

[prplchknz]

How does that make you feel?

That's one thing that might make me feel a little defensive.

them: You seem defensive
me: howso?
them: You just seem angry
me: No, I'm really not. I'm not the type to get defensive.
them: Really? I thought all INFJs were defensive
me: That's a stereotype. It doesn't mean that I'm defensive.
them: Yeah, but it does imply...
me: Just listen and don't impose your own assumptions on me. I'm not defensive! Why are you judging me?
them: See, you are very defensive. I rest my case.
me:

That conversation right their would make anyone defensive, it seems like.

 

[ByMySword]

Would you consider INFJs to generally be earnest, unshakable, stubborn, single-minded, unyielding, and defensive?

Even though I consider myself very open-minded, I would say that does match the description of an INFJ.

I'm stubborn and defensive in my own right. But I wouldn't say I'm single-minded. Unshakable, erm, it would depend on the situation. Unyielding, definately.

 

[heart]

This thread just inspired me to change my type back to infx. I get rather confused by type descriptions. Sometimes they fit perfectly and other times they just don't.

I am fascinated by people who have certainty. It is something I have rarely experienced. I sometimes achieve it during a creative process. When a specific course appears to be the best at the time, I am willing to follow through with it even while acknowledging inside that it is only one of many possible. Self doubt is what drives me onto new knowledge. It lies at my very core. I fail to achieve certainty in terms of morality or any other social phenomenon that involves the perspectives of multiple individuals. My natural inclination is to view things from the vantage point of so many different people that my own vantage point is sometimes at risk. This is so much the case that it presents a continual problem for me. In social relationships I struggle to go through the natural processes of anger when I feel violated because I understand the other vantage point and why the person acted as they did. This can cause me to lose a sense of my own self. I view my own self from outside myself along with the rest. As an extension of this thinking, I belong to no religion, no political party, and struggle to even declare a type. So far I thought it was the iNtuition functions that explained this type of cognitive process. Knowing I am an introvert, it seemed logical enough that my dominant function would be Ni. Perhaps it is not. Or possibly the iNtuitive functions can manifest as either a singular vision or a multiplicity of vantage points?

For me it is curosity not really self doubt that drives me to collect information. My experience with Ne is for me the collection about people and how they think and feel and what motivates them is something that is just like breathing, it is just something I am driven to do at my core. It does not mean I will change my opinion on a person or situation but I have an endless curiosity about these things, I am endlessly searching for more information. It is just like it is my basic MO to want the information, there is no conscious thought driving it, no other motivation but to want the information. It is fun to take in information and to play with the ideas it generates. I can play around internally with information and ideas I get from the external world and perhaps never apply it to any long term views or values.

Sometimes I want so much different information I cannot focus in on any particular thing enough to be effective. I can see into their viewpoints and at times do feel a certain invasive sense that I am taking on too much of their persona into myself doing this, this will drive me back into introversion, but Ne wants to know and experience all there is to know and Fi directs it in the personal, the human experience. The thought of belonging to any group or collective always makes me feel choked off, suffoacted, a fear of being limited from experiencing the broad spectrum of human experiences that I crave to know. I don't want to experience them directly but I do want to observe other people experiencing them and to understand what they feel and why. Not sure I explain this as well as I could today. People can be the most interesting books there are.

But all of that is like in the antechamber of myself. Deeper within is my vault of my own Feeling and values and that is sacrosanct. Nothing gets in there deeply unless it is in harmony and agreement with my deepest beliefs and I have a lot of certainty about that. Or another way to put it is the Ne antechamber is like the test lab for the values center library where the permanent proven things will be stored.

One difference I see between me and my husband (INFJ) is that I play with ideas and information for the sheer joy of it, but he is more into just focusing on what is needed for the goals at hand. Both of us daydream and can imagine what if, but he will focus more on what is directly relevent to his goals and aspirations, but I will be all over the place.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

...
One difference I see between me and my husband (INFJ) is that I play with ideas and information for the sheer joy of it, but he is more into just focusing on what is needed for the goals at hand. Both of us daydream and can imagine what if, but he will focus more on what is directly relevent to his goals and aspirations, but I will be all over the place.

Your entire post was so interesting. I relate to what you describe here much more. Perhaps I'm an INFP. Someone I know well irl recently surmised that I'm P not a J. Perhaps it's true.

 

[Kiddo]

Your entire post was so interesting. I relate to what you describe here much more. Perhaps I'm an INFP. Someone I know well irl recently surmised that I'm P not a J. Perhaps it's true.

Alas, today we lose a great INFJ , but we gain a just as great INFP.

 

[quietgirl]

Since INFJs are motivated by their values and deeply held convictions, they tend to take things personally or become offended when no hurt was intended. Unfortunately their sensitivity can cause them to become defensive, to cut people off, or to reject ideas that don't meet their high standards.

This describes me very well... and also describes my ISFJ boyfriend very well. It's also the reason why when we argue & have different opinions, we both need cool down time before we can discuss things rationally.

 

[redacted]

none of these fit me.

[INFJs can] be fiercely independent - willing to subject themselves to skepticism or criticism in order to make their vision, driven by their strong values, a reality. They are earnest and exude an unshakable faith in their beliefs that engenders trust and respect in others.

when people aren't on my side about what needs to be done; i generally don't take any action. when people are skeptical, i usually let them win. i'm not much of a doer...

Because they believe so deeply in the correctness of their positions, they can be somewhat judgmental or dismissive of competing views. INFJ's single-mindedness can become a liability if they are not flexible enough to modify their plans once they have embarked on a course of action - much like a person driving down a highway and making great time but, unfortunately, going in the wrong direction.

this is totally not me. when people have a problem with what i do, i try to get completely outside myself and question all of my assumptions. i'm quick to admit when i'm wrong, or when i haven't factored something into a decision. i do tend to think that my opinions are more well thought out than most, but i'm not closed-minded at all.

i've made sure i became the type of person that will listen to other people's qualms because my mom is exactly the opposite and i can't stand people like that. i guess it's possible i'm deluding myself here, but honestly, i admit i'm wrong all the time.

INFJs' perfectionism can also result in a tendency to be stubborn and unyielding, especially on issues of morality.

i'm never very stubborn about morality. in fact, i always just think of morality as too subjective to be sure about. i'm always the one defending people that have done something "wrong". almost everyone i know has an easier time taking a moral stance than i -- actually, literally everyone. i swear, i rarely take moral stances ever. (unless something is insanely blatantly clear, and even then, i still end up explaining/rationalizing the action)

Since INFJs are motivated by their values and deeply held convictions, they tend to take things personally or become offended when no hurt was intended. Unfortunately their sensitivity can cause them to become defensive, to cut people off, or to reject ideas that don't meet their high standards.

eh. i guess this is kind of true in a sense. but most things that normal people get offended by, i don't. at all. i always see and fix possible misunderstandings way before reacting to them.

the only things i get offended by that surprise people are things having to do with subconscious motivations. like, if i see that an action is actually motivated by a self-destructive drive to push away people that are close (like me), i'll react to that. most of the time, my friends have no idea what i'm talking about until i explain myself.

Because they are so ruled by their vision and sense of integrity, they may feel their view is the morally correct one and it would be unjust to yield or compromise.

nah. i rarely ever think my moral stance is "better". in fact, i think other people's sense of morals is better than mine. i never know when my moral stances are justified. morals are defined by sort of an average, so if my morals are off the average, they aren't really "right". i trust others to be closer to the average than i am.

edit: i guess i can be dismissive because i just assume that i've thought things out better than anyone else. so when i'm confident in my views, i probably come off as dismissive. but i don't just blindly dismiss people -- i listen to them. i shoot their ideas down most of the time because there will be an obvious flaw in their reasoning. but if their reasoning is sound, i have no problem changing my view. it just doesn't happen that often.

a lot my friends are too intimidated to even argue with me because i guess i have a strong tone when i talk about my ideas. and i'll find flaws in reasoning quickly and point them out. but i think they know i'll at least listen to them if they bring something up. they just aren't confident enough in their views to bring them up to me, only to have them shot down. ironically, i respect my friends that disagree with me way more than the rest of them. i love arguing, and i'm wrong often. i like being wrong (although i like being right more obviously).

but honestly, one doesn't learn from being right all the time. i always take being wrong as an opportunity for growth. meh.

 

[sriv]

Most of these so called qualities of the single-minded INFJ have probably been unshackled because the INFJs were unhealthy with them active. Slowly, but surely you will adopt a T majority.

 

[batumi]

YEP, YEP, YEP. On a rare occasion and with considerable effort on the part of
the other person I can maintain a friendship, but that really just means a smaller
wall.
And, I wonder if other INFJs experience this.....I want to run away when it even
looks like hurt is dawning on the horizon.