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  1. #11
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    All those things are (sadly) me, but I'm much more closed with my beliefs now. I know it is polite for them to listen to my side after I have spent God knows long listening to theirs, but the world apparently doesn't work that way anymore.

    My one weakness is that I absolutely hate being wrong. Sometimes I worry in retrospect that I've avoided a lot of situations because I was scared I would be wrong. Honestly, I sometimes think it comes down to that. I would say that almost all the times (because I don't remember otherwise) I have had an argument with someone I was right and we both openly knew it (as in verbal acknowledgment; not me assuming my vision is infallible), but I always doubt my correctness because it seems so many people want to make conflict. I think it's ridiculous how much I have to sit around and listen to other people's beliefs and hide mine because they already have grenades ready to be thrown in my direction. So if any value I have is conflicting with the majority view, I just keep it to myself and get over it. It seems that my arguments are never "realistic enough", but that's because I don't carry my citations around with me. I think what surprises people the most is that I seem like I am a very neutral and "accepting" person (which I am in many ways). Then I break out from my silence and actually put a solid opinion on the table with facts and literature... and then people just think I am making a weaker argument sound better (sounds like Socrates!) with flashy evidence. That's not true, but how can I prove that without looking like I am a rigid and close-minded ass? I'm already getting used to keeping quiet, though every now and then I do interrupt just to prove I have some sort of knowledge in my head.

    I've wanted to buy that book but I keep buying other (cheaper) ones before it. I actually have "Do What You Are" by the same authors and it is a surprisingly thorough book. I bought it at a Half Price Books by my house for about $6 in order to see if I could effectively use it for characterization for writing. I figured if I could determine one of my envisioned character's type I could possibly find some suitable traits to add on to their personality, especially with what kind of careers they would tend to naturally fall in and why. When I have multiple characters planned I feel like it can be useful to distinguish them by their career life some. I can only imagine the uses I could have with this book! I'm definitely buying it next.
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  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    This thread just inspired me to change my type back to infx. I get rather confused by type descriptions. Sometimes they fit perfectly and other times they just don't.

    I am fascinated by people who have certainty. It is something I have rarely experienced. I sometimes achieve it during a creative process. When a specific course appears to be the best at the time, I am willing to follow through with it even while acknowledging inside that it is only one of many possible. Self doubt is what drives me onto new knowledge. It lies at my very core. I fail to achieve certainty in terms of morality or any other social phenomenon that involves the perspectives of multiple individuals. My natural inclination is to view things from the vantage point of so many different people that my own vantage point is sometimes at risk. This is so much the case that it presents a continual problem for me. In social relationships I struggle to go through the natural processes of anger when I feel violated because I understand the other vantage point and why the person acted as they did. This can cause me to lose a sense of my own self. I view my own self from outside myself along with the rest. As an extension of this thinking, I belong to no religion, no political party, and struggle to even declare a type. So far I thought it was the iNtuition functions that explained this type of cognitive process. Knowing I am an introvert, it seemed logical enough that my dominant function would be Ni. Perhaps it is not. Or possibly the iNtuitive functions can manifest as either a singular vision or a multiplicity of vantage points?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #13
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I am fascinated by people who have certainty. It is something I have rarely experienced. I sometimes achieve it during a creative process. When a specific course appears to be the best at the time, I am willing to follow through with it even while acknowledging inside that it is only one of many possible. Self doubt is what drives me onto new knowledge. It lies at my very core. I fail to achieve certainty in terms of morality or any other social phenomenon that involves the perspectives of multiple individuals. My natural inclination is to view things from the vantage point of so many different people that my own vantage point is sometimes at risk. This is so much the case that it presents a continual problem for me. In social relationships I struggle to go through the natural processes of anger when I feel violated because I understand the other vantage point and why the person acted as they did. This can cause me to lose a sense of my own self. I view my own self from outside myself along with the rest. As an extension of this thinking, I belong to no religion, no political party, and struggle to even declare a type. So far I thought it was the iNtuition functions that explained this type of cognitive process. Knowing I am an introvert, it seemed logical enough that my dominant function would be Ni. Perhaps it is not. Or possibly the iNtuitive functions can manifest as either a singular vision or a multiplicity of vantage points?
    I just want to say I can relate to so much of what you've written here. I don't really want to dig into it any more, though, because I'm finding that digging into it isn't terribly productive or even healthy for me to do.

    But yeah...I can relate.

    As far as single-mindedness, I don't know. I think this aspect of myself shows strongly at times in the work environment, where I sometimes feel I might come across more INTJ-ish. But outside of work, and when you get into interpersonal dynamics, and 'big' philosophical subjects, and psychology, and all of that, things become much more subjective to me....I become more like what toonia was referencing, I think (although...the hard sciences/data/facts are outside of this subjective realm). Everything is so situational with me. I think it's one possible reason why I often don't know what I want to do with my life -- I see all sorts of possibilities, and find it difficult to hone in on just one. I almost wonder if I'm single-minded in my subjectivity. I sometimes have a big problem with those who ARE really black and white.

    Edit: One of the few things that is non-subjective to me, and which is one of the things I care most about, is nature and environmental stewardship. So, I'm not gonna flex, really at all, with those who don't hold that value. So that's where the initial post might hold true for me. Reminds me of the value-sorter thread on this site. Nature/Beauty was my top value, then came Friends, then came Peace.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Motor Jax's Avatar
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    i agree with the first post

    determined - yes

    stubborn - yes

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    ...As far as single-mindedness, I don't know. I think this aspect of myself shows strongly at times in the work environment, where I sometimes feel I might come across more INTJ-ish. But outside of work, and when you get into interpersonal dynamics, and 'big' philosophical subjects, and psychology, and all of that, things become much more subjective to me....I become more like what toonia was referencing, I think (although...the hard sciences/data/facts are outside of this subjective realm). Everything is so situational with me. I think it's one possible reason why I often don't know what I want to do with my life -- I see all sorts of possibilities, and find it difficult to hone in on just one. I almost wonder if I'm single-minded in my subjectivity. I sometimes have a big problem with those who ARE really black and white.

    Edit: One of the few things that is non-subjective to me, and which is one of the things I care most about, is nature and environmental stewardship. So, I'm not gonna flex, really at all, with those who don't hold that value. So that's where the initial post might hold true for me. Reminds me of the value-sorter thread on this site. Nature/Beauty was my top value, then came Friends, then came Peace.
    I think we have a number of things in common. One thing that helps me tolerate black-and-white thinking is that it is often motivated by anxiety. It is sometimes an attempt to simplify a big and scary world. It can be frustrating, and it can also be the result of different things, but I have been around many people for whom it is anxiety underneath.

    I should ask then, do INFPs have less certitude? I was raised in an entire family of INFPs (mother IXFP, brother XNFP, sister INFP) and they are all far more opinionated than I am. I just figured I was a J because I really enjoy organizing stuff whether ideas or junk in a closet. It relaxes me to view an entire context and then create a reasoned system of organizing based on relationships between the ideas or items. I suppose even that involves a balanced distribution of all components of a big picture system. Hey, it is true that such thinking is consistent with what I was describing about my approach to social and moral systems.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The way I think about systems (moral, etc) is that mine is the best or even the right one, but that doesn't necessarily make all the other systems wrong. Those systems might even be the best for the people who hold/use them, just not best for me right now.

    I get frustrated with people who can only see one way. You don't have to agree in order to understand and appreciate someone else's way. But I guess they can't or that it is harder for them than it is for me. Some things are hard for me that are easy for other people, so it makes sense that it would be that way.

    When I'm looking for truth, I always try to step back and try to look at things from different perspectives and apply it to different situations to see how it works. To me, truth isn't Truth if it only works in one time and place. (This is one reason I detest Prosperity Gospel teachings).

    If someone holds different opinions than I do, I try to figure out how they arrived at them. Sometimes they have the more universal view and I add that to my data, so to speak. Sometimes I conclude that they hold that view because they do not look at the larger context. Sometimes I try to pull them back and help them look at things from a different perspective. When they can't/don't it feels like they don't want to play with me, so I feel a little hurt.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  7. #17
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree with cafe.

    Also, it isn't black and white thinking, it's more I am very comfortable with my shade of gray based on my past experiences and investigations and I don't like to deviate from that when it comes to issues like morals/ethics. Nonetheless, one truth may work better for another person than it would for me and vice versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #18
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The way I think about systems (moral, etc) is that mine is the best or even the right one, but that doesn't necessarily make all the other systems wrong. Those systems might even be the best for the people who hold/use them, just not best for me right now.

    I get frustrated with people who can only see one way. You don't have to agree in order to understand and appreciate someone else's way. But I guess they can't or that it is harder for them than it is for me. Some things are hard for me that are easy for other people, so it makes sense that it would be that way.

    When I'm looking for truth, I always try to step back and try to look at things from different perspectives and apply it to different situations to see how it works. To me, truth isn't Truth if it only works in one time and place. (This is one reason I detest Prosperity Gospel teachings).

    If someone holds different opinions than I do, I try to figure out how they arrived at them. Sometimes they have the more universal view and I add that to my data, so to speak. Sometimes I conclude that they hold that view because they do not look at the larger context. Sometimes I try to pull them back and help them look at things from a different perspective. When they can't/don't it feels like they don't want to play with me, so I feel a little hurt.
    I can live with something like this. I realize alot of people won't agree with my views, and I might not agree with them. But the problem comes when the person continually puts you down for your beliefs or call you crazy or weird. My room mate does this a lot and won't listen to my arguments just dismiss them. If I can get her to listen I can usually get her to see my POV using logic based on my observations in the world. It's just even if it's true no one wants to hear that they are weird over and over again. I can't talk about sex without her freaking out, or anything in that vein. She also tends to get upset over little things and is like "OMG, I have to *insert some small thing that really isn't that big of a deal* I can't do this" *freaks out* then goes and drinks. Also she tends to give me advice on how to do something and she thinks just because it will work for her means it will work for me.

    Or she'll have one bad experiance and anything remotely similar to the experience she dismisses as bad.

    Though I think she's really unhealthy and unbalanced to begin with. So I have to realize that not all INFJs are like this all the time, she just takes those qualities to an extreme.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #19
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    I'm wondering how other INFJs deal with becoming defensive like described in the original post. Once I feel very hurt by someone I can't really get rid of the defensiveness with that particular person. A wall just goes up and that's it. It's definitely a hindrance in developing relationships.

  10. #20
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Only time for a quick response I'm afraid, but I've mostly related to what cafe, athenian, toonia and cascademn have said.

    1. I can arrive at deep and cohesive vision allowing me to move through crowds of dissention and disapproval. I do not arrive here on many issues, but when I have, I receive feedback that my strength inspires the respect of others.

    2. The strength of my vision when arrived at is almost always personal rather than global. It is not usually a stance of rightness that would infringe upon others' experience. I do not generally experience the sort of disharmony described here, perhaps because of my choice to keep my vision's as personal as is possible in an interdependent world, respecting the right of others to make different decisions.

    3. In almost all intances I do operate from a place of vision that motivates me forward to bring that vision to fruition. My vision might be as simple as a to-do-list on how to get laundry and grocery shopping done during the day or it might be as significant as my beliefs about how I can most respectfully engage with another human being.

    4. I am constantly changing my course and making adjustments as new information comes in.

    5. I can be stubborn about something as simple as what time I'm going to go grocery shopping and be as flexible as water about my beliefs regarding God. Alternatively, I can be stubborn about my beliefs regarding the healthiest way to interact with a child and carefree about how the events of a day play out. My flexibility or stubborness does not translate into an easily interpreted scale, unfortunately.

    6. My openness to new information and willingness to stray from a vision will depend on the importance I have placed on the realization of that particular vision, how much threat I perceive related to allowing new information to alter my vision, and how much value I place on the new information coming in.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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