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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default When/Why do you externalize Fi values?

    Fi values are personally held values that typically are not value pushed onto others. A "live and let live" or at the very least tolerance even in disagreement sort of philosophy. They may be shared and compared but not often* overtly externalized as the "right" answer.

    *(I know, you may say "often" is in the eye of the beholder, -if you could only see all the values we dont share, I suspect you'd see how few we really do do share.)************************************************** ***********
    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?

    What causes you to externalize your values?

    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?

    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?

    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to acheive a better outcome?

    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?

    And any other comments are of course awesome as always!!


  2. #2
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    What causes you to externalize your values?
    Concern that, if I don't say something, said value may be broken, or that I will be party to something that contravenes that value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?
    I have learnt that it is better to remove myself from the situation than to moralise. Everyone is free to act as they choose, and I am free not to like certain behaviour. Therefore, find a situation where both things can happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the presence of the value is known to the group?
    The latter.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  3. #3
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?
    I think I've noticed that I do this with other Fi users. I still don't do it super often, but I will make rhetorical statements of my values to an Fi user. They're just a matter of fact statement of my Fi values that are at play in the situation at hand. It is the telling that is enough for me. No response necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    What causes you to externalize your values?
    I think I externalize my Fi values in two ways: either I'll simply state them (see question above) or I'll feel like I have to assert them because I'm witnessing something that offends my Fi values. When this is the case, boy-oh-boy. I will very bluntly and forcefully tell the offending parties what it is that they are doing wrong. This may sound conceited, but such behavior is motivated by a sincere desire to do the "right" thing (where "right" is defined by my Fi values.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?
    Yep. I've learned the hard way that even if I'm right - especially if I'm right - this may not be received too well. So I've learned to pick the values I want to externalize. Hopefully, I do it with more tact and discretion - perhaps even with empathy for the offending parties - than I did 10 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?
    If my Fi sensibilities are offended then absolutely I'm hoping that everyone will see how what I'm saying is the most moral choice at hand. It's not me who is "right." Instead, my Fi value is "right" and I want everyone to get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to achieve a better outcome?
    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?
    I'll have to think about these two.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #4
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    when someone is mistreating a child or someone I care about, my Fi powered Te will crush them.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  5. #5
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Fi values are personally held values that typically are not value pushed onto others. A "live and let live" or at the very least tolerance even in disagreement sort of philosophy. They may be shared and compared but not often* overtly externalized as the "right" answer.

    *(I know, you may say "often" is in the eye of the beholder, -if you could only see all the values we dont share, I suspect you'd see how few we really do do share.)************************************************** ***********
    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?

    I'm not sure of this. Is this what we do on forums?

    In general interaction with close people, I've had the tendency to bitch a lot about situations. Things that don't make sense to me.



    What causes you to externalize your values?
    Anger...or something...strong emotion, like a tidal force which...if I don't say something I can't take it.

    Typically...if this counts...I write a letter.




    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?

    Sometimes, instead of giving someone a letter, I'd just write like 10 versions of the letter or note, and NOT send them. This way I process my feelings.

    I learn to let things go more.

    I pick battles.


    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?

    No to both, especially the former. Te wants to fix, but not really. I only apply things in a managerial sense, when it's my job to do it. I'd much prefer to leave it alone.

    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to acheive a better outcome?
    I would write my professors in school, and most of the time, it led to a better result or getting a better grade for some reason. I told one something like, "I think you come to class just to show us how smart you are and not teach us anything", and he quit being as big a dick in class. He explained himself to the class. Ha, ha, he also walked back to my location in the lecture hall and stood in front of my desk and asked me if I understood.

    I reduced my medical bills and other things.

    Today I had a win/loose situation where I had an argument with someone of the same rank. They appealed to higher authority, implying that the higher ups would not be pleased with what I said. So I contacted the higher authority and reconfirmed my operating parameters. Sometimes they tell me contradictory things, so I need clarification.

    Now I have to rebuild my relationship with my co-worker (if I can), but I will not be manipulated by appeals to authority, especially if they are untrue or contradictory with the specifics or general principles the authority has told me on a previous occasion.

    Thus, I try to consider my relationship with my co-worker (the salesperson), the customer relationships, and the owner's directions. I know all these people, including all the general philosophies, so I try to interpret the best long term strategy.


    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?

    Anything involving infatuation.

    Anything going around my supervisor over something I should have let go. I have difficulties operating according to a hierarchy. That doesn't apply very much at my current company, but it has caused problems in the past.

  6. #6
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?

    Not really. It doesn't fit into the general conversation easily - mostly because it comes across as a bit too deep and intense for casual situations.

    What causes you to externalize your values?

    - If I'm have a really interesting, complex, one on one conversation with someone whom I feel a degree of a connection (momentary or longterm)
    - There is a group discussion taking place about a situation/issue/conflict that is very value-driven.
    - If someone does something against my values and I feel that failing to speak up will result in others being hurt.

    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?

    To a degree, but I recognised issues regarding this in childhood, so the refinement has been ongoing. I've spent a lot of time in my adult years reflecting on moral dilemmas and the balance between taking action, keeping the peace and self-preservation. I've considered what my boundaries should be, where I draw the line and where I must push myself to do something. Having a pre-prepared concept about what I should do (and what I expect of myself) in the moment has really helped.

    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?

    Yes. I will often do this in an attempt to frame things in a way that opens people's eyes. I will also play the devil's advocate when the group isn't fairly acknowledging the legitimate arguments for the other side. It's important to me that people have real perspective and are challenged to really think about what they believe and how they they behave; to inspire more consciousness of their own feelings and those of others.

    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to acheive a better outcome?

    I'm not sure if these are very good ones but oh well:

    - A family friend was talking about her gay sister. She loves her and accepts her to some degree but her sexuality still makes her uncomfortable. We started talking about gay marriage and she said she's OK with people having gay relationships but not marriage. And I said, "so you don't believe in equality, then?". This made her stop and seemed to really affect her. I saw that she really was reconsidering her views. We didn't finish the discussion (someone interrupted) and I'm not sure if I entirely changed her mind but it pleased me to see she gained some perspective.

    -A close American friend of mine was leaving NZ to go back home after completing study here, leaving a Kiwi boyfriend behind. She was worried about what to do; she and the boyfriend would have to be in a long distance relationship, he is 7 years younger than her, and she felt like she maybe she was too old (she was 34 at the time) to be galivanting around the world, not advancing her career, settling down, or taking care of her recently widowed mother and the family business. I expressed my view that a long-distance relationship can work, emphasized my belief that love can overcome such obstacles if it is strong enough, and stressed the importance of holding on to what makes you happy and not giving up things based on social expectation or inconvenience. She felt encouraged by what I said and stuck to it. Eventually he moved to the US and I'm pleased to say they got married a year ago.

    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?

    I worked on a kibbutz in Israel and once during a break, I was discussing with a group of other volunteers something I read in the newspaper that day about the conflict. The conversation shifted to the conflict in general and I became a little too vocal with my criticisms of Israel (although I am critical of the Palestinians too and don't really side with one side or the other). I could talk like this with many politically liberal Jewish friends quite freely as they opinions were along similar lines and they weren't sensitive about discussing such a subject. Unfortunately I didn't pick my audience well and there were several rather politically conservative Jews present and they were not at all receptive. In addition, (while it wasn't an issue to my other Jewish friends) my not being Jewish meant that the criticisms were taken as being over-presumptive and unduly harsh coming from an outsider. Others that were present, tried to defend my position but I continued to push the issue (albeit in a non-aggressive manner), when I needed to shut up and leave it the hell alone. I ended up looking like an overcritical, insensitive, Israel-hating meanie, if not borderline antisemitic, all of which I am definitely not. I realised I need to be more careful when expressing my views on such sensitive subjects, and need to better gauge my audience and their ability to engage in discussion without feeling attacked.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #7
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?
    No. If we're talking deep values, then I keep them quiet for good reason. It's very vulnerable to reveal them that. It's like giving someone directions on how to hurt you most. I prefer to keep people on a need-to-know basis.

    What causes you to externalize your values?
    When they have been violated and I need to defend myself. Sometimes I reveal some of them in warnings, when I feel someone close to treading on them.

    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?
    I've learned to not put it off so long, to not always be the one to adjust my behavior to avoid someone else violating my values. I've realized it's okay to have expectations for others & to hold them to it, because my other solution was just to withdraw & avoid people/situations. I used to just change course so as to not cross paths with people/things which violated what was important to me.

    I could also very much have a "straw that broke the camels back" externalizing method, and this tends to make people not understand the real issue or to even to dismiss it. I try to address specific problems when they arise now (not necessarily in the moment if inappropriate, but while it's still fresh), and I've become increasingly better at articulating myself verbally. In short, I hold less in & communicate when people have crossed the line more.

    My natural tendency was to retreat, work it out in my head, and then adjust myself - aka, avoid them. The other person never knew or did not totally get it, and my withdrawals began to hold me back in life. I certainly still think before I act first, so as not to run on emotion, but I think in terms of how to communicate, not just resolving it internally.

    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?
    I make the value known, and this may involve some expectation for them to change. I do not usually dictate how someone should change exactly. I state a need, and I expect them to decide for themselves how to meet it. I feel this is fair because it allows them to do things in their own way, but just asks them to consider me when they make that decision. I think it's the essence of compromise to allow wiggle room for each person to adjust in the way that suits them but still considers the other person's needs.

    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to acheive a better outcome?
    I was a long-term contractor for a magazine. I worked on-site, 40+ hours a week, and was often treated like an employee despite having no benefits or paid time off. So I billed them for Thanksgiving & the Friday after, despite not working those days. There was no work to be done that Friday & coming in was pointless. My boss tried to insist he'd only pay for Thanksgiving, yet he had indicated I should not come in that Friday, knowing there was no work. I calmly & firmly made the case that I turn down other work to devote 40+ hours a week to them, and that this means I was out money for Friday since they couldn't give me work as usual. I also went on about how I work strictly for an hourly wage, without the benefits of an employee, but often with the basic restrictions of one. He recanted & agreed to pay what I invoiced him for. I hung up the phone & my ENFP co-worker applauded me and said I handled it perfectly.

    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?
    I almost never feel unjustified when it's genuinely important, especially because I let a lot slide in life. I'm having trouble thinking of anything that would not have been justified that was actually important to me. I'm not one to cause scenes or drama, so appropriate timing is not much of an issue. I'm a think before I act person most of the time. It's uncharacteristic for me to be otherwise.

    Only family brings out a nitpicky or volatile side, and it often has less to do with values not being valid & everything to do with general moodiness and/or family knowing just where to push buttons. When it's a value issue, I often start out calm, but their dismissal as I explain myself can make me angry. They do this a LOT, which is their fault for being unfairly dismissive, but it's also my fault that I let them get under my skin. What's inappropriate is not bringing up the value, but allowing myself to get emotionally ruffled when they respond critically. I think they upset me & other people don't because I expect way more of them. They DO know a lot more about what is important to me, so I give them less benefit of the doubt, less leeway.

    I suppose my biggest faux pas outside of family interaction is inadvertent invalidation of other people by expressing an opinion, one I view as harmless & rather insignificant. I never mean to do this, because I hate being invalidated & know it all too well. It's usually a matter of not being aware an opinion insults the other person or devalues their feelings.

    Okay, here's an example, albeit a tame one: I worked as a cashier in college. I can't remember the context, but I mentioned one day to my supervisor about how I think cops are all control freaks with power issues. Turns out he was an ex cop! Luckily he laughed it off. Other times, I've not been so lucky. FYI, the value I was indirectly expressing there was autonomy. The irritation with cops was just a symptom of that.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #8
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Do you often share your values, simply as data exchange with another?

    i don't know. i talk about myself a lot. so probably.
    the way i see the world and make sense of it is shaped
    a lot by my values--and lack of.

    What causes you to externalize your values?

    sometimes to push people's buttons.
    sometimes to offer a differing perspective.
    sometimes just because i don't understand
    what the hell is going on and why everything
    is topsy turvy.

    normally it's so i can observe what happens next.

    How have you learned over time to refine the values externalized-better choose time, place or method of externalization?

    i do what i want.
    i'm just better at picking people
    i want to interact with. but
    sometimes not. what i want
    still wins over.

    i don't really get the question.

    Do you externalize values with the goal of changing others behavior or simply to make sure the prescence of the value is known to the group?

    i don't really like trying to change people.
    i think i try to make them aware... but it's
    more for myself, because i'm just trying
    to make sense of the other person by
    relating things back to myself--that's how
    i understand best--i just have to talk and
    work out my thoughts that way.

    but just because i say it outloud, doesn't
    mean they'll get it. most people don't.
    and i rarely expect it.

    if they get it. they get it. and if they don't.
    they don't.

    Examples of where externalization was valid and helpful to acheive a better outcome?

    when people genuinely want to hear
    the perspective i have to offer.

    Examples of where externalization was not really the best idea at the time?

    when people don't want to hear anything
    other than what they want to hear.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

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