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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    You know, come to think of it, I think many of us are just dissatisfied with Jung's archaic and obscure terminology. Should psychology be as unapproachable to the average person as Kantian architectonic?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Even without defining objective and subjective as jung defined them? Why?
    Well, I was having a little brainstorm with Mal's terms. I've noticed sometimes ntps have a hard time when njs break into a new thought processes merging different points of view. I am not a Jungian scholar, nor do I need to be to think about and explore functions and how they work.

    But since you brought it up, I looked in my Psychological Types and on pages 8-10, Jung gives a pretty nice description of subjectivity and objectivity in psychology, and nothing about what he says there goes against what I suggested, and, in fact, it supports it. He does qualify that an objective psychology of type needs to be a conscientious process conducted by one that is aware of his own individuality.

    But I was speaking more to the fact IF we contemplate extraverted functions that are pure and untainted by subjectivity, they would stand as objective manifestations because they are happening in the world outside of us. Fe is feeling exerted onto others, Te is thinking about and gathering data. A robot could be programmed to function in an Fe and Te way, if it could be programmed with all the infinite possibilities of response a human could think of. (think about Iron Man's robot--it is purely objective, yet uses Fe and Te).

    Intuiting and sensing are objective when extraverted as well, though irrational, with an infinite possibility of information. But if we could assess all the information any extraverted function provided, and free it from our own personal subjectivity, theoretically, it would be purely objective and viewed the same by everyone.

    We don't experience it like this, however, because we take it back in and apply our subjective functions to it, making it biased and unique to our own way of being.




    And if you come back with some definition Jung had for subjective and objective, I think that is really beside the point, though interesting.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    And if you come back with some definition Jung had for subjective and objective, I think that is really beside the point, though interesting.
    I'll offer this, just in case: "Quite generally, one could describe the introverted standpoint as one that under all circumstances sets the self and the subjective psychological process above the object and the objective process, or at any rate holds its ground against the object."

    That statement from page 12 of PT is quite telling in itself.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think the thing about Fi and "from the heart" is Fi users often think in terms of "fuck context, this is what it is", when we're thinking about our feelings or values, and therefore our expression of such things is often "unfiltered".
    I think Fe can fuck context just as well as Fi... Because Fe will be more AWARE of the context it's deciding to fuck, doesn't preclude it . Fe is about creating and understanding roles, vibes and emotions of people, situations and other things. If your an asshole and turning down roles people serve up to you, you can STILL be Fe as long as you come at it with you are actively deciding and JUDGING these external opportunities, vibes and roles. I think Fe is closer to Te than it is to Fi in many respects. Or at least it's equally close, Fe and Te, as Fi and Fe.

  5. #35
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    You know, come to think of it, I think many of us are just dissatisfied with Jung's archaic and obscure terminology. Should psychology be as unapproachable to the average person as Kantian architectonic?
    Kantian epistemology brings some sanity to Jung, imo. Not sure that's a compliment to Jungs accessibility

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    Kantian epistemology brings some sanity to Jung, imo. Not sure that's a compliment to Jungs accessibility
    If the subject matter is difficult, then the terminology will be obscure. Jung is not difficult, he's just being obscure. That is known as obscurantism.

    But do I really know this for a fact? Freud was an admitted obscurantist. It was not his goal to be understood by the general public. Jung simply carried on the psychiatric tradition of obscurity.

    So it takes a leap of faith to jump from Kant to Jung when there were so many influences in between.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I'll offer this, just in case: "Quite generally, one could describe the introverted standpoint as one that under all circumstances sets the self and the subjective psychological process above the object and the objective process, or at any rate holds its ground against the object."

    That statement from page 12 of PT is quite telling in itself.
    Yeah. So that reinforces the nature of introverted functions being subjective, no.?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #38
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I'll offer this, just in case: "Quite generally, one could describe the introverted standpoint as one that under all circumstances sets the self and the subjective psychological process above the object and the objective process, or at any rate holds its ground against the object."

    That statement from page 12 of PT is quite telling in itself.
    Yeah. So that reinforces the nature of introverted functions being subjective, no.?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #39
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    I think Fe can fuck context just as well as Fi... Because Fe will be more AWARE of the context it's deciding to fuck, doesn't preclude it . Fe is about creating and understanding roles, vibes and emotions of people, situations and other things. If your an asshole and turning down roles people serve up to you, you can STILL be Fe as long as you come at it with you are actively deciding and JUDGING these external opportunities, vibes and roles. I think Fe is closer to Te than it is to Fi in many respects. Or at least it's equally close, Fe and Te, as Fi and Fe.
    lol yeah, Fe actually consciously chooses the context it's fucking, Fi is just like "i'm not even going to consider this".

    i agree that the pairs are equidistant. Fi shares a good deal in common with Ti, too... you can see it especially when you compare types like INFP/INTP and ENFP/ENTP. we have a lot of similarities in terms of the way we operate, even if we're judging off different bases. i imagine the same holds true for pairs like ENFJ/ENTJ. the ENFJs i know certainly tend toward the same sort of longterm mobilization that ENTJs do, just for different reasons.

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