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  1. #41
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I think my social strategy is kinda fake, to be honest. There are only three people ever that I've been totally "real" around.

    Fake is necessary. At least for me.

  2. #42
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    that probably says as much about you as it does Fe. i wonder how you define the "real" you versus the you that is being "fake?"

    i think it's also important to note that we don't get to be who exactly we want to be with others if we consider the context to be more important than previous decisions. if we side with previous decisions too much, we risk turning all experiences, interpreted by mood and so many variable factors, into beliefs that can often be too deeply rooted and difficult to free ourselves from the contradictions that begin to emerge, especially when we identify with those beliefs as us rather than taking them as information that is crucial to us and who we want to be but not the whole of us and our resources to act, assert, and move forward.

    and regarding fake or not fake, there are many ways of organizing and responding to and asserting oneself and one's motives in social space. it's kind of ridiculous to say ulterior purpose or multiple motives are inherently bad. in the end, the implications of decisions are ranked or simply ignored. neither approach is always ideal for treating others exactly how they want to be treated, nor are their expectations necessarily any more realistic, legitimate, fair/balanced, or appropriate than the best we can do at that time (contingent as decisions and interpretations are). being typologically integrated just means you have a more resourceful mode of reconstructing their experience and their most significant needs, and you can try to accommodate somewhat and listen to what they are saying (which is never just given directly in what they say, the words without being able to reconstruct their experience as they experience it doesn't really do a whole lot in many cases).

  3. #43
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    So in short no, I don't think Fe is fake, in an ENTP for example it's a balanced Fe this is also the case with a mature INFJ because in both cases there is Ti to balance it out.
    By definition that shouldn't be the case. Dom or aux usage of a function should always trump tertiary or inferior usage in terms of skill, balance and effectiveness. Ti in a INFJ could cause plenty of problems such as rash leaps in reasoning, just as a ENTP could impose unreasonable social expectations on others. I do agree that maturity is definitely a factor, though - and maturity seems to be caused by improved usage of the tert/inf functions.

    Equally, I suppose the TPs would be more inclined towards affectation than the FJs.

    I will add that I have never felt safe with Fi, those with it seem to think they're empathic and have this great capacity for understanding people and so on and while they may in their own right when it all comes down to it they will cause those with Fe to crawl into their shell. At least this has been the only experience I have ever had.
    Again, this sounds like tertiary or inferior usage of Fi.
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  4. #44
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    that probably says as much about you as it does Fe. i wonder how you define the "real" you versus the you that is being "fake?"

    i think it's also important to note that we don't get to be who exactly we want to be with others if we consider the context to be more important than previous decisions. if we side with previous decisions too much, we risk turning all experiences, interpreted by mood and so many variable factors, into beliefs that can often be too deeply rooted and difficult to free ourselves from the contradictions that begin to emerge, especially when we identify with those beliefs as us rather than taking them as information that is crucial to us and who we want to be but not the whole of us and our resources to act, assert, and move forward.

    and regarding fake or not fake, there are many ways of organizing and responding to and asserting oneself and one's motives in social space. it's kind of ridiculous to say ulterior purpose or multiple motives are inherently bad. in the end, the implications of decisions are ranked or simply ignored. neither approach is always ideal for treating others exactly how they want to be treated, nor are their expectations necessarily any more realistic, legitimate, fair/balanced, or appropriate than the best we can do at that time (contingent as decisions and interpretations are). being typologically integrated just means you have a more resourceful mode of reconstructing their experience and their most significant needs, and you can try to accommodate somewhat and listen to what they are saying (which is never just given directly in what they say, the words without being able to reconstruct their experience as they experience it doesn't really do a whole lot in many cases).
    Well in a certain sense it's impossible to be fake because we're always authentic given our motivations. But I definitely hold back my real thoughts and just nod my head awkwardly fairly often when people say something I disagree with. I pretty much never outright lie, but I consciously represent myself in a way that may be misleading in terms of my real opinions.

    For example, my ENFJ female friend is in the process of a breakup with her ENFP boyfriend (I'm 95% sure he's bipolar). The other day he was ranting to me about how she's gonna come back to him and how he had all these ideas he had about how he was gonna change, blah blah... it was clearly just manic bullshit. But I just sat there and nodded because I figured I'd be in a better position later to change the way he thinks.

    In general, I tend to navigate social environments pretty carefully (I mean, I'll joke around and shoot the shit like anyone else, but I'll stay away from topics that seem like they have the potential to actually offend someone). I like to set it up so that I seem really understanding and trustworthy (which I am, I guess) but don't try to push my opinions that hard. Then when people start to really trust me and count on me, I can use that as leverage to make important points. And I'm actually really really good at getting through to people no one else can get through to for this reason... I just save up the influence I have for big intervention-like stands.

    On one hand it's cool (I convinced my friend to get on anti-depressants when everyone else was trying for like a year in about 45 minutes), but on the other hand, it's pretty fake.

    Edit: my point is that I really don't see FPs using this sort of strategy.

  5. #45
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    By definition that shouldn't be the case. Dom or aux usage of a function should always trump tertiary or inferior usage in terms of skill, balance and effectiveness. Ti in a INFJ could cause plenty of problems such as rash leaps in reasoning, just as a ENTP could impose unreasonable social expectations on others. I do agree that maturity is definitely a factor, though - and maturity seems to be caused by improved usage of the tert/inf functions.

    Equally, I suppose the TPs would be more inclined towards affectation than the FJs.

    Again, this sounds like tertiary or inferior usage of Fi.
    I'm not sure what we disagree on, in both the INFJ and ENTP there is Fe and Ti which is the total contrast to the other and in that contrast a balance, this has nothing to do with order though order does mean this balance is learned with age. I am simply saying that the Fe/Ti (or Ti/Fe) balance in those two intuitives is a wonderful thing.

    I think you mean TPs over Fi based FPs? Either way, I don't think affection plays into it like that.

    And no, I mean Fi, many ENFPs think they are these greatly compassionate and empathic types but they unlike the INFJ they ENFP will always make the more self serving/protecting choice when it all comes down to it. I know MANY ENFPs for example that won't answer the phone if they're upset with (or fighting with) their partner, this is a very selfish all about self action that leaves their partner wondering if they could be counted on in a situation like upsetting their partner and getting into a car accident on the ride home.

  6. #46
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    And no, I mean Fi, many ENFPs think they are these greatly compassionate and empathic types but they unlike the INFJ they ENFP will always make the more self serving/protecting choice when it all comes down to it. I know MANY ENFPs for example that won't answer the phone if they're upset with (or fighting with) their partner, this is a very selfish all about self action that leaves their partner wondering if they could be counted on in a situation like upsetting their partner and getting into a car accident on the ride home.
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  7. #47
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    (I'm new: will probably do an intro post as well, but thought this topic is interesting, so wanted to chime in, if that's okay.)

    I don't think the way I express Fe is fake, but I do think I use Fe methods of expression to dissemble and abridge how I actually am experiencing the world at any particular moment. I don't think this is inauthentic, because my most authentic self is represented by the impressions, images/sounds, and viewpoints I experience internally through Ni, which are colored by feeling, but by colored I really do mean something like color, or a non-representational subjective state. I can't honestly and without censoring express myself without it sounding like tripped-out free verse or a treatise on metaphysics, either of which, if I say it out loud, become automatically categorized as a certain kind of Fe thing (oh, I'm being poetical! Oh, I'm being philosophical/pedantic!) and lose the immediacy of the raw interior experience. I don't know if most INFJs experience their inner worlds in this way (though I've met several INFJ and INTJ IRL who describe something similar), but because there is something fundamentally untranslatable about my feelings and perceptions, I don't think it's problematic to come up with a socially intelligible way of expressing part of what I mean. I actually enjoy it.

    For example, I think it's really neat when I can come up with a very simple way of expressing a complex thought I'm having to someone who doesn't "get it," or gloss a powerful feeling into a more universal expression of human experience, something relatable. Fe isn't about hiding or revealing a feeling so much as how you do it: there's a difference between ranting and sobbing about the inherent villainy of mankind and stating clearly that you're frustrated by a person who can't hear what you're saying, when it seems appropriate, giving your conversation partner an opportunity to weigh in on frustrating people - positive or negative - and then going off of that or getting out of the conversation if the other person doesn't see where you're coming from. It's a delicate give and take in conversation and relationship that can be quite interesting from a more introverted point of view instead of bothersome, something you have to do without recourse to your Ni. Fe doesn't have to be an out-of-mind or out-of-self experience, which I think, when an INFJ experiences too much dissonance between inner and outer worlds, can become tantamount to an out-of-body experience, which is super upsetting.

    I also think that Fe, using other extraverted functions too (like Se), can be quite creative, not just regulatory. For example, as to trippy Ni stuff, I can, instead of sounding like a stoner prophet, actually write a poem or bust out the watercolors. This might be more a Ti or Se thing (the poem or the painting) in execution, but it does have a major Fe component to it, namely that I am channeling my energy into a symbolic expression that has an established social significance. A poem that captures some odd angle on a vase of flowers or personifies said vase unconventionally or something is, despite the obscurity of the language or the imagery, completely accessible in a conventional sense because it codes as a poem, and the originator as a poet, a known social quantity. Doing so defangs what could otherwise be a revolutionary rupture in social norms, but people probably will not think you're, I don't know, schizophrenic or something for writing or reading/enjoying said poem. Which can make things easier.

    I guess what I mean is that despite the fact that I do use Fe to make nice, and can slip into pretty conventional behaviors and emotionalism without thinking, I've become a lot more comfortable with my Fe since I realized that it can still be guided by and in fact enhance my experience of Ni, which makes me feel less torn and fake and misunderstood. Fe is my ambassador, and knows my ways: it is therefore an honest representation of myself even if it isn't speaking my native tongue when abroad.

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