User Tag List

First 2345 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 47

  1. #31
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?
    Well, I didn't say IFPs don't ever express any emotion.

    1) Yes, it seems more likely to me that IFPs express emotions subtly & indirectly.

    2) People project a lot onto quiet people, and it's something I've heard INFPs complain of before (not just me). I know it's been a pattern in my life to have "aloof, unfriendly, and/or grouchy" stuck on me when I am just reserved and inexpressive at times because that is natural for me. The gaps & stony silences are me thinking deeply about stuff, not sending a message to other people about how I feel. Lack of interaction is a preference for me because I am introverted, not because I am punishing people out of bitterness.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    If this is true, however, wouldn't it seem to indicate that my friends are not using Fe/are not FJs? They are basically saying that if THEY THEMSELVES (not others) behave in a certain way (being polite/civil to people they don't like, or putting on a more cheerful front although they have difficult feelings inside), this is "fake". They're not making that judgment about others (not most of the time anyway).
    I don't think this is a good way to type people for their MBTI/Jungian type. If that's your objective, then I'd consider them as whole people - their entire intangible personality & the mindset it suggests.

    If overall, even in positive & emotionally mature moments, this person turns their feeling judgments inward ("it's wrong/right for me to do X") and not outward ("people shouldn't do X because it's wrong"), then there's a sign they may be an FP.
    Consider the premise for their valuations - is something good/bad because of some moral principle they've derived by considering the basic needs of humans, or is the moral principle derived by considering visible effects on society &/or because their trusted group/authority says so? The former is Fi thinking - an inner ideal is the basis. The latter is Fe - using real world criteria. Look for whole patterns in their thinking, not isolated moments where they give one opinion. Beware of Ti & Te sneaking in, as well as perceptions.

    Can I ask what you would describe as an example of "being fake" or "adjusting your appearance/expression in a less than genuine way", from your INFP perspective?
    Sure. Agreeing with someone to their face, enthusiastically even, then later stating an opposite opinion when in different company. In the moment, it is obvious the person is not truthful because they are over-compensating with their face, voice, phasing, etc. Yet, they'll deny they do not truly feel that way in the moment if called out on it. I truly believe they feel that way in the moment, that they get caught up in it, and it's not until they are removed from that situation that they even realize their individual feeling again.

    It is clear the agreeing was done to create a bond & promote consensus, etc, which must be felt as more valuable than their own feeling in order to abandon their own so readily. However, it still amounted to deception because it was not their true feeling on the matter once all is said & done. Such people allow their true feeling to be eclipsed by the desire of the moment to be pleasing. No one is saying it's better to be a disruptive dissenter, but to outright obscure your real feeling to prevent making waves is hardly admirable. That's when it looks like manipulation or brainless people-pleasing. You wonder, "What does this person really think? Or can they even think for themselves?". It seems they adopt whatever opinion will make them most loved & admired.

    It is also very selfish, because the motive is to prevent making waves, but it's according to their own measure of what peace even is, which often amounts to their own comfort & attractiveness. But they will never admit this, because they always see it as "the group's needs". They are always making a "sacrifice". They're just "too perfect" & "too loving"....

    I notice such people resent when others aren't easily persuaded also, when they don't readily go along with the crowd. Integrity to them means loyalty to their chosen group.

    In a weird way, this also leads to the previous scenario I gave - expressing emotions in an escalating manner until they receive validation. When people don't validate them, then they get mad and/or guilt-trip. It's all a manipulation to create a consensus of feeling, either by abandoning their own feeling or pushing their feeling on others.


    Interestingly, my young friend tends to make judgments about other people, not that they're being "fake" (as in, putting a brave face on difficult emotions), but that they simply don't have problems and difficulties in their own lives, or not much. She has often said things like that. That it's obvious that so-and-so has a pretty easy life and doesn't have major problems causing really painful emotions. I have tried to point out that some people are going through horrendous things emotionally, but they may choose to not show a great deal of it. I'm not sure she believes me. This could however be mainly self-centeredness caused by depression.

    She certainly is deeply concerned with authenticity and identity, as is the other friend I've mentioned. Based on what you've said as well I would think this is more Fi. I think INFJs are concerned with authenticity, but less so; because of the Fe it's more about common ground and relating to others. (Or...is this more of an enneagram question?)
    This just sounds like enneagram 4 - it screams it actually - and INFPs don't have a monopoly on being 4s. I've seen 2s disintegrating to 4s act this way as well though, in addition to 3s with heavy 4 wings.

    I actually think INFJ 4s are more likely to mistype as INFPs than vice versa. This is because average to unhealthy 4s often have problems with routine & structure, they define themselves by their moods (which people will confuse with F-doms), they are preoccupied with identity & uniqueness, etc. Fi-dom 9s don't have a lot of those issues.

    I suppose you can see where my preferences lie partly by the fact that I would hate for someone to call me "fake", but I would hate it even more if I were called "selfish".
    Well, I'd argue that "fake" is "selfish"; it's more often a means to an end which suits the person employing it than anything (as I illustrated above).

    I wouldn't want to be called either, equally.


    Incidentally, I don't think FJs/Fe dom or aux have a monopoly on pointing the fingers at others while ignoring the same behaviour in themselves. I think this can occur in all types. I have seen it suggested quite often on this forum that this is especially or mainly or ONLY the case with FJs and it kind of bothers me.
    Of course FJs don't have a monopoly on such things, but in regards to theory, this specific style of self-obliviousness is explicitly described for Fe. Another kind of disconnection with the self is alluded to for Pi also (seeing their perceptions as some kind of objective reality). It seems Ji is the most self-aware, for obvious reasons; on the other hand, Ji types can be the mos oblivious to others also. Even these aspects are illustrative of the mindset, not definitive. The way Jung describes this aspect for Fe is to show the dominant influence of "the object" on them, to the point where "the subject" is repressed.

    The problem with using these categories to describe real-life behavior is that there are far too many variables involved to pin it on Fe or Fi. To type someone based on behavior such as this becomes extremely faulty for that reason also. It's one thing to note that many previously typed FPs exhibit the same patterns in behavior, and another to type someone as an FP who fits one piece of the pattern. What happens is, you begin to define types by these behavioral patterns, instead of seeing the patterns as merely illustrative. Then, people even begin to warp the actual definitions of types because they know so-&-so who is supposedly XXXX type & she displays a certain behavior, and now they use that behavior to type others as XXXX, even though that behavior is not any part of a definition for the type and may even contradict it.

    My personal impression is that INFPs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as very self-contained/a bit disinterested as you describe. INFJs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as a bit more outgoing and brisk and cheerful, but people may assume that they don't have many feelings of their own (not so much that they are disinterested in others.)
    I would say that is an average Fi-dom. An INFP in good emotional shape would be more expressive of positive emotions & feelings, IMO.

    Since enneagram has been mentioned - yeah, I think that comes into play more with emotions than Jungian type. It also seems less faulty to use this info to determine enneagram type for that reason, although I'd still focus on the person as a whole.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #32
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Hi there!
    OK, I'm not an INFJ, and I'm certainly not an expert in how the blessed cognitive functions work, but I'm offer my opinion anyway, because that's how I roll.

    A random quick note, if a given person of any type somehow committed an "epic fail" with regard to implementing one of their "big 4" (primary, secondary, tertiary, and inferior) cognitive functions, does that make them a "fake" ABCD, WXYZ, ENTJ, ISFP, etc?

    Also, If I'm not wearing a plaid blazer and selling a shitty used car to a penniless old lady am I fake ESTP?



    I think that there is a great amount of misunderstanding about how people FEEL and how they ACT in many common circumstances/occurrences.
    Of the many things I'm a big believer in, three of the most important to me are HONESTY, SINCERITY, and CONSISTENCY.
    NOW - Let's put these virtues in realistic CONTEXT.
    There are a myriad of different social interactions that we all must engage in throughout our lives, in fact each and every day.
    Thus, there are different levels of "intimacy" or "disclosure" that the people we interact with are appropriately entitled to.

    Please take the following list of generic "people types" into consideration to humor me:
    [PEOPLE TYPES]
    (1) Your Best Friend
    (2) Someone You've Only Recently Met, A "New Friend"
    (3) Your Boss
    (4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store
    (5) A Co-Worker (Not a FRIEND, Just a Person Who Works at the Same Place as You)

    Now then, let's take the two specific examples you listed above:

    Let's Call This "Example 1" - it's basically "insincerity" right?


    Let's Call This "Example 2" - it's essentially "full-on, open emotional disclosure" (F.O.E.D.) right?


    Now then, let's take my list and add columns for Examples 1 and 2, and ask ourselves the following:

    "When dealing with the people in this list, is it appropriate and/or prudent at any given time to either be "insincere" with them, or to not "fully disclose my emotions/feelings toward them?"

    I'm filling in the grid with "Yes" or "No" in each cell.
    I'll offer explanations after...

    [PEOPLE TYPES]....................[EX. 1 - "Insincerity"]...................[EX. 2 - "F.O.E.D."]......[MY EXPLANATIONS]
    (1) Your Best Friend.........................[NO].......................................[NO].....................[Your best friend always
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................deserves
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................sincerity
    .................................................. .................................................. ............................and full disclosure of what's
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................going on in your life, that's
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................why they are your best
    .................................................. .................................................. ...............................friend. They TRUST, LOVE,
    .................................................. .................................................. ...............................and
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................ACCEPT you.]

    (2) Someone You've Only
    Recently Met, A "New Friend"...........[NO].......................................[YES]....................[EX 1] You have no reason to be insincere with someone you've just met. How do you expect them to know you, and like you for who you are, if you are insincere with them? Just don't be a fool and trust them like they are your best friend. You have no idea what they are about, so use some common sense. [EX 2] Is fully disclosing your emotional state/feelings the time/etc. really warranted at this point? How will it add
    value to interaction with them? Does it have potential to make them feel awkward/hurt their feelings/make them unecessarily angry/etc.? Is it not more appropriate to get to know them better before "opening the floodgates?"]

    (3) Your Boss..................................[YES]......................................[YES].....................[EX 1] If your boss is an asshole, and you
    tell them to their face, are you prepared to support yourself and your family without any income? [EX 2] Your boss is your boss. They are not your psychologist, confidant, or guardian angel. They are employing you to help them make money. What benefit does F.O.E.D. contribute to your employment relationship with your boss?

    (4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store.......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] Does the kid really need to know
    that the 17 facial piercings they have freak you out? Is that necessary? [EX 2] How will F.O.E.D. benefit the two minutes it takes to pay for your groceries? Will it make your life better? Will make the clerk's life better? Will it end world hunger? No, it will not.]

    (5) A Co-Worker (NOT a Friend).......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] You have to work with this person,
    in their proximity, on regular basis. Is it necessary to get into conversations with them that are not work related? - and that are likely to cause conflict? No. If they are being offensive or rude or unprofessional, then talk to them. But - if they are simply more "cheerful" or "glum" than you, or have a demeanor of some other kind that's simply "different" can't you just "live and let live?" [EX 2] You'd better not give them F.O.E.D. How do you know they won't use that information against you, to try to get you fired, or to discredit you in the eyes of your supervisor, or simply to be a mean fucktard? You don't. They could be a fucking sociopath. Be smart.]

    SO! What's my point?

    It's this:

    (1) I don't think that people who feel they have to display F.O.E.D. in all ways to all people in their lives are "GENUINE" or "SINCERE." They could also be thought of as "IMPOLITE" or "RUDE" or "DEVOID of SOCIAL COMMON SENSE" or "IGNORANT."

    (2) I don't think that people who are "INSINCERE" are disingenuine at all if they are being samrt and protectintg themselves, their well being, or their family's well being. Let's face it, there are going to be people in this life that we DON'T LIKE and HAVE TO DEAL WITH, or maybe even HAVE TO BE NICE TO. Does this mean that you're a fake, sleazy, backstabbing fucktard because you aren't wearing your feelings on your sleeve? Hell no. You might actually be "SMART" or "CIVILIZED" or BOTH.



    Sounds to me like they might just have poor social skills, or a nasty attitude, or both.
    I'm not saying any of that makes them bad people, or that none of it is warranted in their cases, I'm just calling it how I see it via your description.



    To the extent that their "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" makes them rude or unprofessional, they should consider shutting their mouths and adjusting their attitudes/behaviors. Just because someone (regardless of their MBTI type) has "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" doesn't mean that they are entitled to emotionally vomit on everyone else in this world, or to be rude, mean, bitchy, shitty, unprofessional, or rude. Unless you want to live ina cave by yourself and not ever have any contact, however simple it may be, with other human beings, it is necessary to learn how to be socially competent, and to have manners, and respect for other people.

    Now, if either of these people are in a huge fucking state of depression and it is affecting their ability to live a normal, productive life, then I hope they are seeking help, but I must be the bearer of bad news that not everyone they encounter will care. Some people flat out don't give a shit if you are going through a rough time, and your life may be alot easier if you use some social common sense in dealing with them, rather than exposing yourself to some asshole that you don't have the energy or desire to deal with. It's just as much a factor of self-preservation as it is civility.



    In my opinion, NO.
    That sounds like "bullshit" to me actually.



    +1



    This sounds like an example of interaction between FRIENDS or FAMILY. In that case I agree with you, get it off your chest, in the end everybody has to know where everbody else stands/how they feel about things; even if they don't like it. Then, once all the cards are on the table, everyone has to figure out how they are going to live in peace considering the social dynamics of what's going on. You'd be surprised. Some of my (extended) family members who at one point really drove me up the fucking wall, and I let them know it, and honestly I also "let them have it" a few times, have revealed a side of themselves at a later date that was unbelievably kind and altruistic.

    BUT - again, I'm going back to the example of being professional, if you're unhappy, do your BOSS or your CO-WORKERS need to know about it? I'm not talking about being "fake happy," I'm simply talking about "doing your job." I think it's totally fine to not wear your emotions on your sleeve yet still retain being genuine and sincere, it's all about discretion, there's a time and a place for everything.



    YES!



    OMG, I love "The Splenda Effect" - that is SO funny, yet damn accurate.



    +1,000!

    Looking forward to thoughts, comments, opinions, recipes, and even haikus...



    -Alex
    Halla, I dont have time to quote little bits, but I wanted to let you know how much I apprecaite you writing this out.

    In myself and in the comments I see from other enfps, we tend to be way to open and have a harder time learning the social ropes-we tend to treat everyone at the friends/family level rather than having layers. The entps here and some infjs have helped me understand this layering and why it is impotant much better, but it was very awesome to see it written so clearly from your perspective. This level of clear direction on Fe can be SO useful!! I'll think up a thank you haiku!!!


  3. #33
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/so
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,927

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Halla, I dont have time to quote little bits, but I wanted to let you know how much I apprecaite you writing this out.
    Awww, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    In myself and in the comments I see from other enfps, we tend to be way to open and have a harder time learning the social ropes-we tend to treat everyone at the friends/family level rather than having layers. The entps here and some infjs have helped me understand this layering and why it is impotant much better, but it was very awesome to see it written so clearly from your perspective. This level of clear direction on Fe can be SO useful!!
    I'm very glad it is useful to you.
    I have friends who are "Fi" users, and I've seen this phenomena be a problem for them.
    The above is actually one of my "5 minute pep talks" but it's never been stated in terms of "how to use "Fe" so it's not fake, and why" - it's always just been a "OK, you're having a hard time with PEOPLE right now, let's chat about how to handle them so you preserve yourself and don't get more hassles."

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I'll think up a thank you haiku!!!

    AWESOME!!!
    5-7-5, keep the dream alive!



    -Alex
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  4. #34
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,939

    Default

    I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

    "INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

    "Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

  5. #35
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Te
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sorry to start another thread with "Fe" and "fake" in the title, but I've been wondering about this.

    If you're INFJ and you think Fe/trying not to make others feeling uncomfortable with your emotional states is "fake" - does that mean you're not really INFJ?

    I don't mean things like being smarmy and sucking up to someone you secretly despise; or overly-fawning customer service, or anything like that. I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about, and not constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not.

    I ask because I know a couple of people who say they identify with the INFJ type, but I'm pretty sure they're respectively INFP and xNFP (either withdrawn ENFP, or outgoing INFP.) There are other indicators that I would think indicate they're Fi users rather than Fe, but this is a big one. They have both used the words "fake" in reference simply to being nice to people they aren't crazy about, and restraining emotional intensity in certain situations.

    For example: I say "A lot of people find it difficult to be around emotional negativity and dark intensity a lot, so I find that being like that most or all of the time tends to push people away." INFP: "Oh, so I should just be completely fake then?" (Admittedly, regardless of type, neither of them are particularly stable - they would even say that themselves.)

    Is it possible to be an Fe user and still think that non-total-emotional-disclosure is "fake"?
    I suppose it depends on your perspective, and what you find fake about it.

    I'd like to add more to that, but I need to think about it a bit more first.
    You lose.

    _______

    RCOEI
    Melancholic-Choleric
    Respectful Leader

    Johari Window|Nohari Window

  6. #36
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    1,068

    Default

    I'm not reading this all, my attention span is too short at the moment. I will say this because I think it adds to the topic, a secondary, tertiary or inferior function isn't going to manifest the same way a dominant function would. They are all tweaked in some way by their position. I HATE, in fact have a total loathing for my Fe, the older I get the less logical I can be, I feel everything, things I don't want to feel, it's a burden and hinders what's in my own best interest at times. While my Fe has Ne/Ti standing guard in front of it my Fe is also metaphorically old enough to not need mom and dad (Ne/Ti) to protect it and want's nothing more than to stand by itself and feel safe (doesn't actually happen but wishful thinking is nice).

    So in short no, I don't think Fe is fake, in an ENTP for example it's a balanced Fe this is also the case with a mature INFJ because in both cases there is Ti to balance it out.

    I will add that I have never felt safe with Fi, those with it seem to think they're empathic and have this great capacity for understanding people and so on and while they may in their own right when it all comes down to it they will cause those with Fe to crawl into their shell. At least this has been the only experience I have ever had.

  7. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

    "INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

    "Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.
    What does that even mean? "By way of their Fe"?

  8. #38
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

    "INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

    "Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by crack View Post
    What does that even mean? "By way of their Fe"?
    Guess it means: putting up a nice face for everyone and having an ear for all problems, disregardless of your own mood or condition
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Guess it means: putting up a nice face for everyone and having an ear for all problems, disregardless of your own mood or condition
    I don't see the connection between that and authenticity, though.

    What if a person is antisocial? How are they being authentic when they "put up a nice face... etc"? Do they really value authenticity, or PC-ness?

  10. #40
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crack View Post
    I don't see the connection between that and authenticity, though.

    What if a person is antisocial? How are they being authentic when they "put up a nice face... etc"? Do they really value authenticity, or PC-ness?
    That is a different question and I agree.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

Similar Threads

  1. Who does he think he is?
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-24-2013, 11:24 AM
  2. Anyone who thinks Ron Paul Shouldn't be President is completly stupid or ignorant...
    By Munchies in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 152
    Last Post: 01-13-2012, 01:47 PM
  3. Child who thinks everything is funny.
    By Lily flower in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-16-2011, 12:51 PM
  4. [Fe] Fe is fake and manipulative (proofs inside)
    By INTP in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-21-2011, 01:04 AM
  5. The National Who Thinks ThatGirl Is The Shit Thread
    By ThatGirl in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-13-2008, 02:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO