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  1. #21
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    If you are intuitive subtype of INFJ and value Ni and Ti more, then you might feel like Fe is fake. See description of Ni-IEI here for intuitive subtype: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Meged-Ovcharov The Fe-subtype has less qualms about it.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    My take on "unhealthy" Fi would be: insistence on "honestly" vomiting your emotions everywhere regardless of how it makes others feel; and "unhealthy" Fe would be: manipulating left right and centre, and sucking up. But that may be oversimplifying. It just seems to me more that these people are using "unhealthy Fi" than any kind of Fe.
    [\QUOTE].


    If I may comment, not an INFJ, no offense intended, and only hope my comments may contain something of value..

    I would agree that your friends are likely not INFJs..the things you describe are more Fi in nature..

    I disgaree that openly sharing negative emotions in a close friendship is "unhealthy". (However, note that to me the connotation of "unhealthy" strikes a very negative chord of permenance or brokenness-thus perhaps a better Fi friendly term is depressed or immature or socially innapproriate.)

    wrt emotional sharing, ENFPs totally rant about our frustrations. We share, we cross affirm, then we try and problem solve for one another. This can degenerate into "counter productive bitch sessions" if we get stuck in this rut however. Action-Te style is the solution. Not sure what an INFP would need to do though...

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I've seen her in a group being reasonably civil to others, and then when she turns to me her shoulders slump and she looks grim, hostile and depressed. I've asked her about this (because it fills me with dread.) She says something like "well, you know what I'm going through, so if I act cheerful with you, it's totally fake." .
    This seems indicative of her trust in exposing these emotions to you, not understanding you dont deal well with this level of emotional intensity. I used to do this to ENTP and INFJ friends but eventually, via reading threads such as these, realized how stressful this impacts those on the Ti-Fe side of the fence. I became much more emotionally walled off from them at this point, in an effort not to induce stress in them-but at the cost of depth of friendship in some situations.

    We learn this the hard way by losing friends however.

  3. #23
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Going back to that thing I said about it being where your focus lies...I would think that Fe can also be "expressed" by REFRAINING from doing or saying things that are going to stress people out, hurt their feelings, etc. Being tactful and thoughtful, sometimes by keeping your mouth shut. I certainly think that's why I do some of the time (not all the time...I am certainly not immune from saying things that would hurt people's feelings, usually when my own feelings are hurt.)

    But what I'm saying is Fe could be expressed by silence/tactful withdrawing. And Fi could be expressed by being vocal about one's inner feelings.

    Does that make sense? Am I misunderstanding the functions or is this a reasonable interpretation?
    [\QUOTE].


    I think your understanding is quite right-very often Fi drives one internally to speak up. Typically for an ENFP it is fighting for a cause, aka, Te in the service of Fi, but be highly emotive. on the negative side, A less developed Fi in an enfp can result in the emo vomit response.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I kind of agree with this. But further to what I've said above - surely part of human interaction is learning what works and what doesn't. If ranting 24/7 about your own negative feelings puts other people off, you may want to learn from that and tone it down a bit. Etc. So, coming back to what I said - couldn't Fe sometimes be expressed by withdrawing tactfully or by keeping your feelings to yourself? Because what often happens to me (Ni/Fe, I think) is that in a split second I picture myself saying something to someone, but based on the situation or what I know of them I know it can be hurtful, so also in that split second I picture their hurt reaction, and withdraw what my gut reaction was to say - and say something else more tactful. Or just keep my mouth shut. And I believe that is Fe.
    [\QUOTE] .


    do you find this sometimes keeps you from offerring candid advice? (no judgement intended )

  4. #24
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I disgaree that openly sharing negative emotions in a close friendship is "unhealthy".
    Oh, I hope I haven't given the impression that I think it's always a bad thing to share negative emotions. I certainly share mine with my close friends (in moderate/smallish doses - sometimes more if I need it and I'm around friends who can be supportive of it - and if I think I won't be judged over it.) I completely believe that in a true/close friendship you should be able to share those emotions and to help each other work through difficult times. I try to do that with close and close-ish friends and it has frequently been reciprocal.

    What I object to is constantly using the other person as a sounding board, or free therapy, or your...emotional vomit bucket. Particularly when it's an indication that you have issues and problems that you are not attempting to deal with and resolve yourself (even when I am showing willingness to support and encourage you in making those changes), and you are just complaining and venting to me about them, and not making any effort at forward progress. (You also brought out that there should ultimately be an element of problem-solving.)

    In all honesty, I think people who consistently do this (and I'm talking for many many months or years at a time...ie. it's a consistent thing, not just temporary because they're going through a hard time and need a hearing ear) are being selfish users. It usually involves a sucking of the other person's energy, too. I have had it with more than one person in my life, though the probable young INFP I've talked about is the most extreme case and it is probably due to depression and other serious emotional issues (which is why I encouraged her to seek therapy).

    I think I'm fairly resilient/supportive of this sort of thing, up to a point; I certainly tried very hard with this girl. But there comes a point when it becomes too difficult, and I don't think that's necessarily dependent on her being INFP and me being INFJ, etc. I mean, I do pick up people's feelings at least to a certain extent and that makes it hard. But I don't think relentless negativity is something that a "friend" should be required to put up with. It can become enabling, too. I start to get frustrated, upset and possibly angry when this sort of pattern has gone on for very extended periods of time and it's obvious that the person hasn't tried to improve matters for themselves, is playing the victim, and only feels better when they've bombarded you with negativity and have left you feeling like you've been run over by a truck. I've had conversations with her where with every single positive and encouraging thing I have tried to say (with an eye to realism and that she is going through a hard time), she contradicts it and turns it into something negative. Literally EVERY SINGLE THING. It would be funny if these conversations didn't ultimately make me want to kill myself.

    I'm sorry for the rant, I just feel strongly about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    do you find this sometimes keeps you from offerring candid advice? (no judgement intended )
    Hmm, interesting question. I guess sometimes it does. Maybe even often. It's so dependent on circumstances and my relationship with the person, though. Have they asked me for advice? If we are close and tend to be very open with each other, and perhaps I've seen the person make the same mistake over and over (I'm talking like mistakes that are so obvious that they totally acknowledge them themselves), I might get pretty candid and even blunt, but I would probably qualify it with "I hope this doesn't sound hurtful, but..." or "I have to be honest, even if it sounds harsh..." And I do try to be diplomatic. I don't want to be needlessly hurtful, for sure. If I start skipping that sort of step I'm probably intensely frustrated or upset myself or frankly, feeling a bit mean partly because I feel frustrated. Sometimes I may conclude there's no point in (ahem) lecturing. I mean, if someone is right in the middle of a situation why should I do the whole "I told you so" thing? However, while I can be supportive up to a point with the difficulties they then go through, I will eventually suffer from compassion fatigue if they play the victim or constantly generate such situations but then wonder why they have such "bad luck", etc. Then I might end up just nodding along, but sort of backing away slowly from the situation, or allowing more distance between us.

    If it's someone I'm not particularly close to and there's no indication they want advice I would probably refrain from commenting. People have asked me for advice quite often in my life, which is nice...sometimes even unexpected...I try to be diplomatic.

    I hope that kind of answers your question...

    Thank you for the INFP/ENFP Fi insights; those make a lot of sense to me.


    EDIT: @Orobas rereading this and what you said above...I mean, am I wrong? I find it selfish when people unload on me that consistently/interminably and to that extent.

    Is it selfish? Or am I just misunderstanding the workings of Fi and I really am worse at taking the emotional intensity of others than I thought I was.
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  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    If you're INFJ and you think Fe/trying not to make others feeling uncomfortable with your emotional states is "fake" - does that mean you're not really INFJ?
    I guarantee you that is not why FPs will call FJs fake. People who openly express every little emotion make me uncomfortable. I'm far more contained than any FJ I know.... I get dumped on by friends far more than I am listened to or even attempt to express myself.

    I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about, and not constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not.
    This is called being polite & having emotional maturity & has little to do with Fe/Fi.

    I ask because I know a couple of people who say they identify with the INFJ type, but I'm pretty sure they're respectively INFP and xNFP (either withdrawn ENFP, or outgoing INFP.) There are other indicators that I would think indicate they're Fi users rather than Fe, but this is a big one. They have both used the words "fake" in reference simply to being nice to people they aren't crazy about, and restraining emotional intensity in certain situations.
    Yes, I've heard FJs say such things. They seem more aware of when others are fake than when they themselves have adjusted their own appearance/expression in a less than genuine way.

    One of the reasons why this can very much be Fe behavior is that Fe is "creative" also, meaning it doesn't just adapt to existing values of others. It also asserts value, and seeks to influence others to adopt the same valuation (as its far more focused on consensus for validation than Fi). So a Fe type who feels that their negative feeling is important & needs to feel validated by others could definitely be very vocal about it, even if it's not "appropriate".

    Is it possible to be an Fe user and still think that non-total-emotional-disclosure is "fake"?
    Well, Fi types don't necessarily think that way either. It's possible for any type to think that because it's not directly about Fi/Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Just to add: Fi being "introverted" doesn't necessarily mean that it's less visible, does it?

    Doesn't it mean more that Fi is concentrated on your interior/core self, while Fe is more concentrated on the exterior/others? I don't think that *necessarily* means that Fi would mean the emotions are generally less visible. It's more to do with focus than expression. (?)
    Feelings are not emotions. Visible emotions has less to do with type than people think. Feeling types are only associated more with emotions because emotions have a degree of "valuation" attached to them, so they are used as signals to communicate & to interpret. But when it comes to venting emotionally, well no type has a monopoly on that. T types are stereotypically known for angry rants, for example.

    When it comes to an ExFP expressing emotions openly, that can have more to do with them being extroverts than using Fi. They need to interact, to talk while they sort thoughts, etc.

    And yes, Fi feelings, as in valuations, are less visible & more often expressed indirectly (ie. their spirituality, their art, their life style, etc). It's written right into the description of it. Fi is NOT simply about a focus on yourself. It's focusing on an inner vision of perfection in regards to human needs & using it to guide your valuations - valuations which can very much be about other people, the community, appropriate behavior, etc. The self is simply a prototype for "human". So if the Fi-dom is focused on trying to "determine what is right in regards to people & relationships, how to make life beautiful & well-balanced" (Van der Hoop), then it would not be a trademark of theirs to indulge in emotional outbursts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jung on Fi-doms
    They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.

    ....Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it.
    The last part is indicating the tendency of the Fi-dom to not only be stingy in their own expression, but to be so contained they seem disinterested in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung on Fi
    Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth.
    ....
    To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...

    But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type herself. It may express itself in a secret religiosity anxiously shielded from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #26
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Thank you for the INFP/ENFP Fi insights; those make a lot of sense to me.


    EDIT: @Orobas rereading this and what you said above...I mean, am I wrong? I find it selfish when people unload on me that consistently/interminably and to that extent.

    Is it selfish? Or am I just misunderstanding the workings of Fi and I really am worse at taking the emotional intensity of others than I thought I was.
    Oh, no, please forgive if I came across as judgemental in anyway-your friend sounds very trying and you should not have to deal with that sort of longterm hurt in another who isnt trying to help themselves in someway. Based upon OAs post, you may consider she is an ENFP? Depressed enfps can be extremely introverted but very whiny and sullen.

    OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?

  7. #27
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Oh, no, please forgive if I came across as judgemental in anyway-your friend sounds very trying and you should not have to deal with that sort of longterm hurt in another who isnt trying to help themselves in someway. Based upon OAs post, you may consider she is an ENFP? Depressed enfps can be extremely introverted but very whiny and sullen.

    OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?
    No, you didn't come across as judgmental. It has been trying, but admittedly I think things are improving a bit for her. She is young (well, almost 19) so things may improve on that basis as well.

    I would have pictured her as INFP because she comes across very introverted, but she often says things like that she doesn't enjoy either being alone or being with other people. She is also extremely conflicted over whether she wants friends or wants to be self-reliant. I had fewer emotional difficulties at that age than she does, but I experienced some of those conflicts too. I think overall it all has more to do with her general emotional state than being type related. It's just that I have thought that the way her difficult emotions come across is not very Fe. (Although some very interesting points have been raised in this thread).

    With the other friend, I think it is very likely that she is an introverted ENFP. She is kind of withdrawn, but I think mainly because a) her health isn't great, and b) she's had her feelings hurt by many people for many different reasons and is wary. But there are so many aspects to her behaviour which come across very ENFP (very impulsive; often vocalizing what is true to her in the moment, but it can change or seem to change quite quickly; very passionate, etc.).
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  8. #28
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    Yes, I've heard FJs say such things. They seem more aware of when others are fake than when they themselves have adjusted their own appearance/expression in a less than genuine way.
    If this is true, however, wouldn't it seem to indicate that my friends are not using Fe/are not FJs? They are basically saying that if THEY THEMSELVES (not others) behave in a certain way (being polite/civil to people they don't like, or putting on a more cheerful front although they have difficult feelings inside), this is "fake". They're not making that judgment about others (not most of the time anyway).

    Can I ask what you would describe as an example of "being fake" or "adjusting your appearance/expression in a less than genuine way", from your INFP perspective?

    I haven't been accusing these people of being "fake", btw. If anything, I probably feel that they are not being "fake" enough.

    Interestingly, my young friend tends to make judgments about other people, not that they're being "fake" (as in, putting a brave face on difficult emotions), but that they simply don't have problems and difficulties in their own lives, or not much. She has often said things like that. That it's obvious that so-and-so has a pretty easy life and doesn't have major problems causing really painful emotions. I have tried to point out that some people are going through horrendous things emotionally, but they may choose to not show a great deal of it. I'm not sure she believes me. This could however be mainly self-centeredness caused by depression.

    She certainly is deeply concerned with authenticity and identity, as is the other friend I've mentioned. Based on what you've said as well I would think this is more Fi. I think INFJs are concerned with authenticity, but less so; because of the Fe it's more about common ground and relating to others. (Or...is this more of an enneagram question?)

    I suppose you can see where my preferences lie partly by the fact that I would hate for someone to call me "fake", but I would hate it even more if I were called "selfish".

    Incidentally, I don't think FJs/Fe dom or aux have a monopoly on pointing the fingers at others while ignoring the same behaviour in themselves. I think this can occur in all types. I have seen it suggested quite often on this forum that this is especially or mainly or ONLY the case with FJs and it kind of bothers me. It is my impression certainly that many INFJs (myself and those I've known) are pretty big into self-scrutiny and aware of their own failings - although admittedly they take criticism more readily from themselves than from others. And yes, we can also be self-righteous and lecture.

    Every person of every type has got their blind spots and may sometimes indulge in finger-pointing. Self-awareness or lack of it is not type-specific.

    Maybe everyone of every type is capable of a stunning lack of self-awareness, but Fe dom/aux is a bit more likely to point the finger at others over similar things. But I wouldn't say this is massively disproportionately the case. I don't know.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The last part is indicating the tendency of the Fi-dom to not only be stingy in their own expression, but to be so contained they seem disinterested in others.
    Yes, I think I have seen that on occasion.

    My personal impression is that INFPs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as very self-contained/a bit disinterested as you describe. INFJs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as a bit more outgoing and brisk and cheerful, but people may assume that they don't have many feelings of their own (not so much that they are disinterested in others.)
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  9. #29
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    [...]
    I've had conversations with her where with every single positive and encouraging thing I have tried to say (with an eye to realism and that she is going through a hard time), she contradicts it and turns it into something negative. Literally EVERY SINGLE THING. It would be funny if these conversations didn't ultimately make me want to kill myself. bout this.
    You're right about her 'playing victim'. I've known people like this, and at first I tried very hard to be supportive. But then it became clear to me that she didn't really want help. She was just trying to enforce her victim status so that she could not be blamed for the bad things happening in her life. I think to admit that you messed up takes courage, and not everyone has the mental strength to own up to it. Your friend seems to be doing this, and I honestly don't think there's a way to help her at this point >_<

    This link is also interesting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
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  10. #30
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    You're right about her 'playing victim'. I've known people like this, and at first I tried very hard to be supportive. But then it became clear to me that she didn't really want help. She was just trying to enforce her victim status so that she could not be blamed for the bad things happening in her life. I think to admit that you messed up takes courage, and not everyone has the mental strength to own up to it. Your friend seems to be doing this, and I honestly don't think there's a way to help her at this point >_<

    This link is also interesting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
    Ooh, the "drama triangle" looks fascinating. Will look more closely when I have a minute.

    I think the girl I have described is on a bit of a knife edge. She is young. She has more time to turn things around for herself. I do feel for her, though I probably sound unsympathetic here. It has been so draining and dramatic that I am definitely suffering from compassion fatigue (and just fatigue...) and can't do a lot more besides try to encourage her to get help. It sucks as well that she lives at home but not only has a pretty dysfunctional family but has little support from them. (Her mom also seems to be seriously depressed.) She did bravely go to the doctor and was referred to a therapist - after I hassled her a lot to go to the doctor, but it was definitely brave of her to do it. But now I do not know if she's going to carry on with therapy. Which is a shame especially as it is free in this country if you need it... And I have made it very clear I cannot be her therapist. Support and talking is one thing. Throwing all your emotional burdens on someone not qualified to take them on, that's another thing.
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