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  1. #11
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I think so. Well, unless they're unhealthy 4s, who like to spew emotions all over the replace regardless of whether they use Fe or Fi
    One of them is definitely a 4...almost stereotypically so... (not the one I've elaborated on above, the other one.) So that could apply... I think the other person may also be 4, but less sure. So, I guess that is also possible...
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  2. #12
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah, agreed...up to a point. But as an INFJ, how would you assess it if someone was like "I'm depressed [which she is], and others don't adjust to me [really not true, in my opinion] and what I feel comfortable with, so why should I adjust to them or hide my depressed feelings, at all?"
    Hmmm... in this situation, if someone said that they are depressed and others don't accommodate them, I'd ask them if there's anything I can do to make things more comfortable for them. Depending on how they answer, I'll make accommodations according to what their wishes are. I'd rather not force someone to pretend to be happy if they aren't. If they need to express their emotions and let them out with someone, then I'll be there for them. If they don't need any help at all, I'll let them be.
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  3. #13
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    Hmmm... in this situation, if someone said that they are depressed and others don't accommodate them, I'd ask them if there's anything I can do to make things more comfortable for them. Depending on how they answer, I'll make accommodations according to what their wishes are. I'd rather not force someone to pretend to be happy if they aren't. If they need to express their emotions and let them out with someone, then I'll be there for them. If they don't need any help at all, I'll let them be.
    True... I think the problem is that with the young INFx(?) I'm thinking of, "accommodating me" means something like: having conversations with her where she contradicts every positive thing you try to say to encourage her, and validating her negativity; offering her undivided attention, due to her jealousy/neediness; treading on eggshells but expecting her to say something hurtful at any minute...

    Sorry, I'm not trying to argue, I'm sure it sounds like it though. I think the problem is partly that I was (in part) inspired to this question by one person who isn't in a very good emotional state and another one who is in a pretty terrible emotional state and has a poor sense of boundaries. So that is skewing my own perceptions and perhaps they are not very good "test cases." In this case, that is why I have stepped back, and that is why she has ended up in therapy...

    I mean, I do believe in trying to make people comfortable, very much so (Fe!). I just can't help wondering if someone who thinks pretty much entirely that others should accommodate to their emotional state - even if they are kind of "unhealthy" - can be INFJ. I would have thought that an "unhealthy" INFJ would manifest differently. But everyone is different regardless of type, and maybe I'm just thinking of my own reactions in similar situations.
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  4. #14
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    This is a interesting thing to me SilkRoad. It might still be a little early in my day to try and explain but let me see here...

    What you write above...that is generally a 'complaint' I hear in 'reverse'. Or with regards to xNFPs...primarily ENFPs. I mean, I have seen on this forum and others...more than once mind you - plenty of times...INFJs and other types state that they don't feel they can just 'be depressed' around xNFPs. Like...I'm not even talking about Fe or Fi or any other functions here. Just that there are times when an individual wants to express their (true) negative feelings and be pissy & crappy...and for that to be okay. But around the xNFP there seems to be an 'unspoken requirement' that a state of 'constant cheerfulness' be maintained. <--- and I have seen this chalked-up to 'fakeness'. Other types expressing a frustration with xNFPs (again - moreso ENFPs) that this is unrealistic. Kinda like a 'fair-weathered' kind of friend. And if the 'depression' is prolonged...the xNFP ends up being 'gone'.

    ^^^not that that has anything to do with anything. But I will go on to say here...that I am 'heavy on the Fi'...and I do not like to show my true feelings to others if they are negative. Even people that are pretty close to me. I have been depressed for quite some time now and I have totally isolated myself. Again...because I do not want to burden others with my hardships.

    Likewise...I know a couple of people that test INFJ. They do not fit the traditional descriptions of INFJ...and so I have, on occassion, had my doubts. But I will say to you...that they do NOT hide their feelings in public or otherwise (and I often wish they did LOL!).
    Starry: I could definitely see what you describe above arising with ENFPs in some cases (ie. they insist on constant cheerfulness.) I even started a thread about that regarding one particular ENFP I know!!

    What do you think it is about your Fi that makes you more likely to withdraw, than to perhaps spill your emotions? Do you think this is specifically about Fi vs Fe?

    By the way, I'm sorry you're going through such a hard time!
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  5. #15
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    True... I think the problem is that with the young INFx(?) I'm thinking of, "accommodating me" means something like: having conversations with her where she contradicts every positive thing you try to say to encourage her, and validating her negativity; offering her undivided attention, due to her jealousy/neediness; treading on eggshells but expecting her to say something hurtful at any minute...

    Sorry, I'm not trying to argue, I'm sure it sounds like it though. I think the problem is partly that I was (in part) inspired to this question by one person who isn't in a very good emotional state and another one who is in a pretty terrible emotional state and has a poor sense of boundaries. So that is skewing my own perceptions and perhaps they are not very good "test cases."

    I mean, I do believe in trying to make people comfortable, very much so (Fe!). I just can't help wondering if someone who thinks pretty much entirely that others should accommodate to their emotional state - even if they are kind of "unhealthy" - can be INFJ. I would have thought that an "unhealthy" INFJ would manifest differently. But everyone is different regardless of type, and maybe I'm just thinking of my own reactions in similar situations.
    I understand. It's a delicate balance. Whenever I encounter moments where someone is making it difficult to resolve their own personal issues/ depressive states, I usually tell them that it's up to them to make a difference in their life and that they are in control of how they respond to stress. I illustrate to the other person that being depressive is counterproductive to actually solving the problem that they are facing. Getting them to think of ways that they can help solve the problem for themselves is usually what I do in situations like these. It depends on the person though. Some people just need consoling and validation of their emotions and what strategies they can take to solve their problems... others need attention, and others need to get up and actually do something to make their lives better.
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    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  6. #16
    Senior Member typologywhore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ... I think the problem is that with the young INFx(?) I'm thinking of, "accommodating me" means something like: having conversations with her where she contradicts every positive thing you try to say to encourage her, and validating her negativity; offering her undivided attention, due to her jealousy/neediness; treading on eggshells but expecting her to say something hurtful at any minute...
    [...]
    I mean, I do believe in trying to make people comfortable, very much so (Fe!). I just can't help wondering if someone who thinks pretty much entirely that others should accommodate to their emotional state - even if they are kind of "unhealthy" - can be INFJ. I would have thought that an "unhealthy" INFJ would manifest differently.
    ...oh dear, that social dynamic does sound kinda yecchy :/

    It does sound more like Fi to me, but I guess there is the possibility it this could be Fe but sorta twisted out of shape by unhealthy patterns of thinking. I think I may have come off similarly myself, in the past, when in more extreme unhealthy/off-kilter states: I've sometimes tended towards a sort of extreme emotional pushiness in social interactions, intensely, almost aggressively, talking about emotions and ideas that were important to me - "deep stuff", one might say (ha ha) - in a dysfunctional and misguided effort to make others do the same (), because, uncomfortable in my own skin and floundering in a social arena I perceived as hostile, this was the only way I could see to get me the "deeper" connection to others I longed for. I could definitely imagine this came across as Fi-driven, when it was really compulsive!Fe desperately trying to establish a set of social parameters that would enable [what I imagined to be] more fulfilling/meaningful connection.

    Hmm. Will think on the issue a little more, and maybe post again later. Interesting issue

  7. #17
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    the positive harmonic triad 7, 2, 9 can prefer more cheerful ways of being. emotional regulation from these folks can work to varying degrees and leave others feeling as if their real negative feelings were not met or validated. no one would call a 1w9 fake. they're usually a bit critical in a way that is undisguised. same with a 5w4 like me. i am simply not emotionally focused enough to construct a perfectly articulated in-the-moment emotional expression nor am i active enough to try to take control of an entire emotional situation, especially as it grows in size and number of participants.

    Fe is about the language of feeling. but in a way that is different than you think. we have to use the language to feel it ourselves (i'm using language as a way of contextualizing communication system here, because Fe is about emotionally charged communication, NOT just from the perspective of the sender but from the perspective of the interaction as a whole designed for the purpose of shared emotional learning. however, that's not to say that only Fe can do this, it's just to say that Fe is geared towards the engagement/form of the interaction itself and not just towards the stories of the individuals and their respective evaluations).

    so, this focus on the interaction itself means that we have to perform it ourselves to make it real. to identify with the expression and posture and gesture and context and somehow listen to what it feels like to sing along. then we can physically predict what it would feel like for this intention or that, relying on something OUT THERE, the emotional feedback of the other person's, to see if it lines up. it's like psychology experiments that show when people can't mirror a smile because their faces are physically restricted, they can't test if it's fake or not nearly as well as they normally could. this is what we do.

    we can also test our intended response too and see if it's the one we want, and some Fe types more than others learn how to take control of their expressions better to mirror less and try to lead more (especially e3 types!). but we're always, to some degree, doing both--we're both responding to AND mirroring their feelings in order to actively communicate AND to receive their message. we have to incorporate their emotional gestures and symbolic actions into our framework of what we know so that we can interpret the meaning (<--this last phrase might be more ifj related).

    so our feeling method is much different than Fi, based as it is on all those mirror neurons that we use to perform the other's feeling, to physically mirror and mimic them and use that as the basis for what they are feeling. this is different than being able to imagine ourselves in their story and feel their immediate horizon of possibilities and sense of place in the world amidst all those other converging and diverging stories (like an Ne type would). the phrase "where they are coming from" is perfectly apt for how p types operate so spatially. they rely, instead, on being able to consult their own huge emotional framework which is simply complex feeling-nets cast together in huge webs of good/bad as they reconstruct a story from their episodic memory, the traces of remembrance on their bodies, the details of their subjective experience much of which is quite distinct and apart from the repetition we j types tend to see and focus on in order to borrow a frame we have already built (not necessarily as what the context is, but at least our beginning starting point to test and build our multi-faceted representation of the situation (perhaps this is more of an Ni perspective)). (this reliance on representation is also why j types can be slower, especially ij types, and need more time to reintegrate information and build new expectations and predictions to feel comfortable. it's much more challenging for us to put together a story on the fly and access all those details because we are usually noticing other things and more filtered by particular forms of what we know (the contexts we have mapped out really well that we use to organize our reading of a situation that are based more on representations than being able to monitor as many details of a situation and keeping the various stories going to organize response so much more immediately).

  8. #18
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Been thinking about this a bit more... I get the impression that people feel Fe is always something "expressed." And Fi is "inward" so you can't see it.

    Going back to that thing I said about it being where your focus lies...I would think that Fe can also be "expressed" by REFRAINING from doing or saying things that are going to stress people out, hurt their feelings, etc. Being tactful and thoughtful, sometimes by keeping your mouth shut. I certainly think that's why I do some of the time (not all the time...I am certainly not immune from saying things that would hurt people's feelings, usually when my own feelings are hurt.)

    But what I'm saying is Fe could be expressed by silence/tactful withdrawing. And Fi could be expressed by being vocal about one's inner feelings.

    Does that make sense? Am I misunderstanding the functions or is this a reasonable interpretation?


    EDIT: I was just rereading what @the state i am in said. About how Fe has to be "performed" or "put out there" to be real (if I understood correctly.)

    I kind of agree with this. But further to what I've said above - surely part of human interaction is learning what works and what doesn't. If ranting 24/7 about your own negative feelings puts other people off, you may want to learn from that and tone it down a bit. Etc. So, coming back to what I said - couldn't Fe sometimes be expressed by withdrawing tactfully or by keeping your feelings to yourself? Because what often happens to me (Ni/Fe, I think) is that in a split second I picture myself saying something to someone, but based on the situation or what I know of them I know it can be hurtful, so also in that split second I picture their hurt reaction, and withdraw what my gut reaction was to say - and say something else more tactful. Or just keep my mouth shut. And I believe that is Fe.

    (When I don't keep my mouth shut and I just say the hurtful thing - I've usually gone over to a place where I don't care, and the Fe is probably just going to be judgmental and bossy, at best...)
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  9. #19
    Glycerine
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    It's my dominant and I sometimes consider it "fake", to be blunt. There is a difference between genuine interest and the "fake" interest.

    The fake sort of Fe is what I call the Splenda Effect.... sweet but leaves a bad aftertaste or to put it another way, it's like eating a good greasy meal but your throat get coated with grease after the meal. It's feels good for awhile but ends up feeling slimy.

    Good, genuine Fe can give you a warm fuzzy feeling..... and becomes contagious to everyone around the person. It basically lights up the room.

  10. #20
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sorry to start another thread with "Fe" and "fake" in the title, but I've been wondering about this.

    If you're INFJ and you think Fe/trying not to make others feeling uncomfortable with your emotional states is "fake" - does that mean you're not really INFJ?
    Hi there!
    OK, I'm not an INFJ, and I'm certainly not an expert in how the blessed cognitive functions work, but I'm offer my opinion anyway, because that's how I roll.

    A random quick note, if a given person of any type somehow committed an "epic fail" with regard to implementing one of their "big 4" (primary, secondary, tertiary, and inferior) cognitive functions, does that make them a "fake" ABCD, WXYZ, ENTJ, ISFP, etc?

    Also, If I'm not wearing a plaid blazer and selling a shitty used car to a penniless old lady am I fake ESTP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I don't mean things like being smarmy and sucking up to someone you secretly despise; or overly-fawning customer service, or anything like that. I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about, and not constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not.
    I think that there is a great amount of misunderstanding about how people FEEL and how they ACT in many common circumstances/occurrences.
    Of the many things I'm a big believer in, three of the most important to me are HONESTY, SINCERITY, and CONSISTENCY.
    NOW - Let's put these virtues in realistic CONTEXT.
    There are a myriad of different social interactions that we all must engage in throughout our lives, in fact each and every day.
    Thus, there are different levels of "intimacy" or "disclosure" that the people we interact with are appropriately entitled to.

    Please take the following list of generic "people types" into consideration to humor me:
    [PEOPLE TYPES]
    (1) Your Best Friend
    (2) Someone You've Only Recently Met, A "New Friend"
    (3) Your Boss
    (4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store
    (5) A Co-Worker (Not a FRIEND, Just a Person Who Works at the Same Place as You)

    Now then, let's take the two specific examples you listed above:

    Let's Call This "Example 1" - it's basically "insincerity" right?
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    "I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about."
    Let's Call This "Example 2" - it's essentially "full-on, open emotional disclosure" (F.O.E.D.) right?
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    "[I'm talking about] constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not."
    Now then, let's take my list and add columns for Examples 1 and 2, and ask ourselves the following:

    "When dealing with the people in this list, is it appropriate and/or prudent at any given time to either be "insincere" with them, or to not "fully disclose my emotions/feelings toward them?"

    I'm filling in the grid with "Yes" or "No" in each cell.
    I'll offer explanations after...

    [PEOPLE TYPES]....................[EX. 1 - "Insincerity"]...................[EX. 2 - "F.O.E.D."]......[MY EXPLANATIONS]
    (1) Your Best Friend.........................[NO].......................................[NO].....................[Your best friend always
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................deserves
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................sincerity
    .................................................. .................................................. ............................and full disclosure of what's
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................going on in your life, that's
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................why they are your best
    .................................................. .................................................. ...............................friend. They TRUST, LOVE,
    .................................................. .................................................. ...............................and
    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................ACCEPT you.]

    (2) Someone You've Only
    Recently Met, A "New Friend"...........[NO].......................................[YES]....................[EX 1] You have no reason to be insincere with someone you've just met. How do you expect them to know you, and like you for who you are, if you are insincere with them? Just don't be a fool and trust them like they are your best friend. You have no idea what they are about, so use some common sense. [EX 2] Is fully disclosing your emotional state/feelings the time/etc. really warranted at this point? How will it add
    value to interaction with them? Does it have potential to make them feel awkward/hurt their feelings/make them unecessarily angry/etc.? Is it not more appropriate to get to know them better before "opening the floodgates?"]

    (3) Your Boss..................................[YES]......................................[YES].....................[EX 1] If your boss is an asshole, and you
    tell them to their face, are you prepared to support yourself and your family without any income? [EX 2] Your boss is your boss. They are not your psychologist, confidant, or guardian angel. They are employing you to help them make money. What benefit does F.O.E.D. contribute to your employment relationship with your boss?

    (4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store.......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] Does the kid really need to know
    that the 17 facial piercings they have freak you out? Is that necessary? [EX 2] How will F.O.E.D. benefit the two minutes it takes to pay for your groceries? Will it make your life better? Will make the clerk's life better? Will it end world hunger? No, it will not.]

    (5) A Co-Worker (NOT a Friend).......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] You have to work with this person,
    in their proximity, on regular basis. Is it necessary to get into conversations with them that are not work related? - and that are likely to cause conflict? No. If they are being offensive or rude or unprofessional, then talk to them. But - if they are simply more "cheerful" or "glum" than you, or have a demeanor of some other kind that's simply "different" can't you just "live and let live?" [EX 2] You'd better not give them F.O.E.D. How do you know they won't use that information against you, to try to get you fired, or to discredit you in the eyes of your supervisor, or simply to be a mean fucktard? You don't. They could be a fucking sociopath. Be smart.]

    SO! What's my point?

    It's this:

    (1) I don't think that people who feel they have to display F.O.E.D. in all ways to all people in their lives are "GENUINE" or "SINCERE." They could also be thought of as "IMPOLITE" or "RUDE" or "DEVOID of SOCIAL COMMON SENSE" or "IGNORANT."

    (2) I don't think that people who are "INSINCERE" are disingenuine at all if they are being samrt and protectintg themselves, their well being, or their family's well being. Let's face it, there are going to be people in this life that we DON'T LIKE and HAVE TO DEAL WITH, or maybe even HAVE TO BE NICE TO. Does this mean that you're a fake, sleazy, backstabbing fucktard because you aren't wearing your feelings on your sleeve? Hell no. You might actually be "SMART" or "CIVILIZED" or BOTH.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I ask because I know a couple of people who say they identify with the INFJ type, but I'm pretty sure they're respectively INFP and xNFP (either withdrawn ENFP, or outgoing INFP.) There are other indicators that I would think indicate they're Fi users rather than Fe, but this is a big one. They have both used the words "fake" in reference simply to being nice to people they aren't crazy about, and restraining emotional intensity in certain situations.
    Sounds to me like they might just have poor social skills, or a nasty attitude, or both.
    I'm not saying any of that makes them bad people, or that none of it is warranted in their cases, I'm just calling it how I see it via your description.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    For example: I say "A lot of people find it difficult to be around emotional negativity and dark intensity a lot, so I find that being like that most or all of the time tends to push people away." INFP: "Oh, so I should just be completely fake then?" (Admittedly, regardless of type, neither of them are particularly stable - they would even say that themselves.)
    To the extent that their "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" makes them rude or unprofessional, they should consider shutting their mouths and adjusting their attitudes/behaviors. Just because someone (regardless of their MBTI type) has "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" doesn't mean that they are entitled to emotionally vomit on everyone else in this world, or to be rude, mean, bitchy, shitty, unprofessional, or rude. Unless you want to live ina cave by yourself and not ever have any contact, however simple it may be, with other human beings, it is necessary to learn how to be socially competent, and to have manners, and respect for other people.

    Now, if either of these people are in a huge fucking state of depression and it is affecting their ability to live a normal, productive life, then I hope they are seeking help, but I must be the bearer of bad news that not everyone they encounter will care. Some people flat out don't give a shit if you are going through a rough time, and your life may be alot easier if you use some social common sense in dealing with them, rather than exposing yourself to some asshole that you don't have the energy or desire to deal with. It's just as much a factor of self-preservation as it is civility.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    Is it possible to be an Fe user and still think that non-total-emotional-disclosure is "fake"?
    In my opinion, NO.
    That sounds like "bullshit" to me actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    I think it depends on how Fe is manifested. If it is in genuine display of caring and affection, it isn't fake.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    But when it ends up becoming a mask to cover up one's true emotions (like appearing happy when really feeling sad so then not to disappoint others), it seems less authentic.
    This sounds like an example of interaction between FRIENDS or FAMILY. In that case I agree with you, get it off your chest, in the end everybody has to know where everbody else stands/how they feel about things; even if they don't like it. Then, once all the cards are on the table, everyone has to figure out how they are going to live in peace considering the social dynamics of what's going on. You'd be surprised. Some of my (extended) family members who at one point really drove me up the fucking wall, and I let them know it, and honestly I also "let them have it" a few times, have revealed a side of themselves at a later date that was unbelievably kind and altruistic.

    BUT - again, I'm going back to the example of being professional, if you're unhappy, do your BOSS or your CO-WORKERS need to know about it? I'm not talking about being "fake happy," I'm simply talking about "doing your job." I think it's totally fine to not wear your emotions on your sleeve yet still retain being genuine and sincere, it's all about discretion, there's a time and a place for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    It's my dominant and I sometimes consider it "fake", to be blunt. There is a difference between genuine interest and the "fake" interest.
    YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    The fake sort of Fe is what I call the Splenda Effect.... sweet but leaves a bad aftertaste or to put it another way, it's like eating a good greasy meal but your throat get coated with grease after the meal. It's feels good for awhile but ends up feeling slimy.
    OMG, I love "The Splenda Effect" - that is SO funny, yet damn accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Good, genuine Fe can give you a warm fuzzy feeling..... and becomes contagious to everyone around the person. It basically lights up the room.
    +1,000!

    Looking forward to thoughts, comments, opinions, recipes, and even haikus...



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    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
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    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

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