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  1. #1
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Default The Restrictive Fi Value

    This is something to which @OrangeAppled alluded once and which I have been thinking about. I think I may also have read @Udog talk of something similar.

    I think that the restrictive Fi Value is a belief that constrains Ne,or an aspect of Ne (i.e. one particular possiblity/outcome). It can be seen as an overriding construct which allows indulgent fantasy yet sabotages the outcomes before their mental and/or physical completion. Below are a couple of examples which I give within the context of a relationship, since this is something to which everyone can relate.

    Ne: I like this new person/friend. S/he's very nice/funny/interesting/attractive. I enjoy being around him/her. I wonder what s/he enjoys? I'd like to spend more time with him/her to learn more.

    Restrictive Fi Value: Is it wrong to like someone other than my partner? Where are the boundaries between like and love? What if I have transgressed those boundaries without even realising it? Would that make me a bad person? Am I being deceitful, or treacherous? I am too interested in this new friend; it simply cannot be a good thing.

    Ne: Well, even though I've just come out of a relationship, and I felt bad for a while, there are other opportunities in life. I'm excited to think of new things. Maybe I might even meet someone new? I wonder what that would be like...

    Restrictive Fi Value: Is it wrong to want to move on? What if I met someone and my ex didn't? I would feel bad because s/he would still be upset about the end of the relationship and I've just moved on. Would I feel guilty in enjoying myself? How can I legitimately enjoy myself when my relationship has just failed? I've haqve fallen short of perfection; it is wrong to revel in that.

    You can see how overactive Fi is at work here. These sort of feelings can easily help to augment, or even commence, a Fi-Si loop. If Ne is always sabotaged, then the possiblity of ever being other than
    sad/unhappy is nullified. I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to avoid this train of thought?

    I have in the past found it useful to consult TJs about such matters. They look at things quite objectively. ISTJs are quite good, since they can use tertiary Fi to engage with you. I've heard things like "Well, nothing can make you feel worse than how you feel right now. Give something new a go and see how you feel." Other NT suggestions like "You don't owe that person anything, so don't worry about him/her" or "You're being too hard on yourself. No-one is perfect." are also useful. ISFXs can also be quite good to talk to ("This must be very upsetting for you.").

    I suppose, in this situation, INFPs need to be more like ENFPs, and allow the Ne to carry us through. We need to immerse ourselves in newness, whatever it might be, and then force Fi to operate post hoc. The key is recognising when we feel this way, and knowing how to deal with it. There also needs to be some way in which we can alleviate ourselves of the belief that we owe people to behave in a certain way, or that we are the guardians of everyone's emotions.

    Thoughts?
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  2. #2
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Default

    I think having some sort of filter on Ne is a pretty good idea, actually. Unrestricted Ne can cause its own issues, especially when the judgment function isn’t strong enough to keep it in check. A strongly developed Fi can provide just enough restrictions to force Ne to be really creative. I think it’s a mistake to view Fi as a party-pooper.

    The main thing is that you need to be intelligent about what filters you put on Ne. As you are finding out, the wrong filters will prevent Ne from doing the things it does best. So my question is, have you really taken the time to figure out what rules you want to live by? Or is your Fi simply reacting to the emotion of guilt you are feeling right now?

    It’s worth your while to take the time to figure out the rules you want to live by. That way, when this type of situation comes up, you’ll be able to figure out where the emotions fit in with your Fi.

  3. #3
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I think pre-evaluation can be good in the way @Udog describes. Instead of reacting & getting caught up in that so much that you never do anything, you have a pre-thought out idea of what is important to you & how you'd like to act in certain situations. It provides a sort of automatic filter for stuff that doesn't meet your basic needs/beliefs, so less time is wasted in constant evaluation. Of course, being honest about your emotions is important; are you conflicted because you think something may appear inappropriate & therefore hurtful to someone, but you're really over-thinking it? Or do you feel some risk of real inappropriate feeling developing?

    And see, there I go over-analyzing also .

    IMO, I think Fi becomes restrictive, not only in the sense you describe (where you get so caught up in evaluating the significance of everything that you cannot act), but also when you do pre-evaluate, but create too high standards or too narrow a vision for your ideal. It's a balance of knowing what you want & what you believe in general so you can act on it when opportunities arise, but not limiting yourself from possibilities that could satisfy you because they don't fit a too specific ideal. So when you're faced with a dilemma, you already kind of have a road map for the general direction you want to go in, but you don't limit yourself to one route.

    I think getting perspectives from friends is great too. That probably will turn your Ne back on, get you out of your head, present new perspectives, etc. The Fi-Si loop danger is highest when isolating yourself, IMO.

    As for other people...well, yeah, I just tell myself I am not responsible for them - their life, their feelings, etc. I can be kind & thoughtful in my interactions, but I don't owe most people anything extraordinary. Again, I think when you have your priorities pre-set, then there's less guilt over the little things; you know when & how you have decided to do good, what you have made a priority, and so those instances when you wash your hands clean of people are just times of conserving your energy for those priorities.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #4
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Another self-hating NF...

  5. #5
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Fi only becomes inconveniently restrictive if you, as a person, are restrictive and judgemental.
    1w9 sx/sp
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    Not all those who wander are lost

  6. #6
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Judgment functions are restrictive by definition.

    Te restricts perception by filtering out thoughts not relevant to the environment.
    Ti restricts perception by filtering out thoughts not relevant to the current thought process.
    Fe restricts perception by filtering out thoughts not morally consistent with the environment.
    Fi restricts perception by filtering out thoughts not morally consistent with the current thought process.

    When the judgment functions are done processing a stream of unfiltered perception data, the individual is left with a reduced-down summary which makes it much more simple to come to the next decision.

    IMO, the problem mentioned in the OP is too much filtering, not too little Ne. It doesn't sound like something that can be thought out of with MBTI -- it's all about long term reinforcement when you're looking for sweeping psychological change like this. I struggle a lot with essentially the same problem, only the Fe version. And I unfortunately haven't figured out a way to turn off my hyperconscience by increasing the use of some other function or whatever.

  7. #7
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Funny, this thread has just appeared in a perfect time in my life. I'm having a few problems with those loops these days. haha
    Making the Fi act later seems a good solution... It's like giving things a chance for working out or not. Looping in the over-analysing way, we don't let ourselves to try something new sometimes... Of course, Fi is also useful, but don't we just need some kind of balance? But where is that balance? Well, I don't know. "Is it wrong to like someone other than my partner?" I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by mujigay View Post
    Fi only becomes inconveniently restrictive if you, as a person, are restrictive and judgemental.
    Like a normal INFP? :P

  8. #8
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    Funny, this thread has just appeared in a perfect time in my life. I'm having a few problems with those loops these days. haha
    Making the Fi act later seems a good solution... It's like giving things a chance for working out or not. Looping in the over-analysing way, we don't let ourselves to try something new sometimes... Of course, Fi is also useful, but don't we just need some kind of balance? But where is that balance? Well, I don't know. "Is it wrong to like someone other than my partner?" I don't know.



    Like a normal INFP? :P
    Interesting that you should say that. The common stereotype is that ESxJs are tightly wound and judgemental, no? But between my INFP friend and my ESFJ friend, I'd say the INFP was the quickest to jump to conclusions, and never let go of them.
    1w9 sx/sp
    A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.

    All that is gold does not glitter
    Not all those who wander are lost

  9. #9
    Member Rim's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    This is something to which @OrangeAppled alluded once and which I have been thinking about. I think I may also have read @Udog talk of something similar.

    I think that the restrictive Fi Value is a belief that constrains Ne,or an aspect of Ne (i.e. one particular possiblity/outcome). It can be seen as an overriding construct which allows indulgent fantasy yet sabotages the outcomes before their mental and/or physical completion. Below are a couple of examples which I give within the context of a relationship, since this is something to which everyone can relate.

    Ne: I like this new person/friend. S/he's very nice/funny/interesting/attractive. I enjoy being around him/her. I wonder what s/he enjoys? I'd like to spend more time with him/her to learn more.

    Restrictive Fi Value: Is it wrong to like someone other than my partner? Where are the boundaries between like and love? What if I have transgressed those boundaries without even realising it? Would that make me a bad person? Am I being deceitful, or treacherous? I am too interested in this new friend; it simply cannot be a good thing.

    Ne: Well, even though I've just come out of a relationship, and I felt bad for a while, there are other opportunities in life. I'm excited to think of new things. Maybe I might even meet someone new? I wonder what that would be like...

    Restrictive Fi Value: Is it wrong to want to move on? What if I met someone and my ex didn't? I would feel bad because s/he would still be upset about the end of the relationship and I've just moved on. Would I feel guilty in enjoying myself? How can I legitimately enjoy myself when my relationship has just failed? I've haqve fallen short of perfection; it is wrong to revel in that.

    You can see how overactive Fi is at work here. These sort of feelings can easily help to augment, or even commence, a Fi-Si loop. If Ne is always sabotaged, then the possiblity of ever being other than
    sad/unhappy is nullified. I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to avoid this train of thought?

    I have in the past found it useful to consult TJs about such matters. They look at things quite objectively. ISTJs are quite good, since they can use tertiary Fi to engage with you. I've heard things like "Well, nothing can make you feel worse than how you feel right now. Give something new a go and see how you feel." Other NT suggestions like "You don't owe that person anything, so don't worry about him/her" or "You're being too hard on yourself. No-one is perfect." are also useful. ISFXs can also be quite good to talk to ("This must be very upsetting for you.").

    I suppose, in this situation, INFPs need to be more like ENFPs, and allow the Ne to carry us through. We need to immerse ourselves in newness, whatever it might be, and then force Fi to operate post hoc. The key is recognising when we feel this way, and knowing how to deal with it. There also needs to be some way in which we can alleviate ourselves of the belief that we owe people to behave in a certain way, or that we are the guardians of everyone's emotions.

    Thoughts?
    Ask if what you are doing is logical and probe for more information before jumping to a conclusion. Fi often saves my ass from making some dumb Ne driven decision which I would regret later on. Fi is restrictive mainly because that is its function. It filters Ne/judges it. For example if you break up with someone or worse they break up with you, the next person you will date within a short period of time will most likely just be a rebound and you will hurt their feelings with that, which will come biting you back in the ass cus that will make you feel shitty. Fi is a rational function, it just looks at things from a different perspective then Fe, Ti, Te. If Ne can supply better information, Fi will be able to come to less painful conclusions.

    I agree with needing to use Ne more, especially if the respective person has Fi driven problems such as:

    May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
    May perceive criticism where none was intended
    May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
    May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
    May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
    May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
    May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
    May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
    May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
    May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
    May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
    May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
    May be oblivious to other people's need
    May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
    May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them
    Under great stress, may obsess about details that are unimportant to the big picture of things
    Under stress, may obsessively brood over a problem repeatedly
    May have unreasonable expectations of others
    May have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations

    Solutions

    To grow as an individual, the INFP needs to focus on opening their perspective to include a more accurate picture of what is really going on in the world. In order to be in a position in which the INFP is able to perceive and consider data that is foreign to their internal value system, the INFP needs to know that its value system is not threatened by the new information. The INFP must consciously tell himself/herself that an opinion that does not concede with their own is not an indictment of their entire character.

    The INFP who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to their motivation for taking in information. Do they take in information to better understand a situation or concept? Or, do they take in information to support a personal idea or cause? At the moment when something is perceived, is the INFP concerned with twisting that perception to fit in with their personal values? Or is she/he concerned with absorbing the information objectively? To achieve a better understanding of the external world, the INFP should try to perceive information objectively, before fitting it into their value system. They should consciously be aware of their tendency to discard anything that doesn't agree with their values, and work towards lessening this tendency. They should try to see situations from other people's perspectives, without making personal judgments about the situations or the other people's perspectives. In general, they should work on exercising their iNtuition in a truly Extraverted sense. In other words, they should use iNtuition to take in information about the world around them for the sake of understanding the world, rather than take in information to support their own conclusions. The INFP who successfully perceives things objectively may be quite a powerful force for positive change.
    Enneagram: | 6w7 cp - 4w5 - 1w2 Sp/Sx/So | The Philosopher King

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    So my question is, have you really taken the time to figure out what rules you want to live by? Or is your Fi simply reacting to the emotion of guilt you are feeling right now?
    I should point out that I don't actually feel guilty right now; it was just an example. Nevertheless, it has happened in the past. To answer your question: no, I don't think I have decided on rules. I suppose I always thought I knew them intuitively. In those examples it seems as if Fi is creating the feeling of guilt by operating too vigourously upon half-formed notions (Ne) that have no basis in the external world. It's like looking for meaning but far, far too often.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [A]re you conflicted because you think something may appear inappropriate & therefore hurtful to someone, but you're really over-thinking it? Or do you feel some risk of real inappropriate feeling developing?
    Both. This is really at the heart of my confusion/concern. The second of your questions leads directly on from the first, if the first premise is indulged.

    I am aware that over-thinking occurs at certain times, in certain situations. Not only am I aware of it, it's reinforced: people literally tell me I am over-thinking. In the past, I have even told the person whom I fear I would offend exactly what I think/feel; even then, I am vindicated, and yet still feel uneasy. It's almost as if there is an internal audit going on, where I am asking myself "Are you being authentic? Are you sure? Are you sure you're not just kidding yourself?"

    Queue INFP 4w5 self-analysis along the lines of "No-one can truly know me; I cannot truly know myself".
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

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