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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default How does an FJ "grow" or "change"?

    This is a theoretical question, not one about a specific situation.

    To begin, let me illustrate how I grow and change. I do this, not to be self centric, or ask for ways to change this but instead to be an illustration of what seems to be an ENFP archetypical pattern:

    1. First I seek honest feedback from someone I trust
    2. I seek emotional affirmation that I am a valued person and have worth and am accepted as I am.
    3. I then seek a generalized example of what the issue is and why it impacts others
    4. Then I seek concrete guidlines and very specific feedback on exactly what and how I need to change

    A specific incident with another ENFP, my son:

    1. My son trusts me as his mother, thus we have an established relationship.
    2. I say "I love you and you are a good hearted peron with good intents, but...
    3. "you need to be more aware of how not picking up the house and helping out impacts your step-mom. It causes her stress and hurts her feelings, as it looks like you dont care about her"
    4. "Start by taking the garbage out every morning, picking up after dinner and washing your own clothes..."

    ************************************************** ******************

    Can you guys help me understand what the symmetric pattern or series of steps would be for an FJ? I expect they may seem similar at first, but the details may differ somewhat???

    something like:

    1. A trusted person (what is trusted? how is this determined?)
    2. "You are a clever person with good ideas..."
    3. "but you are being irrational/rude/disrespectful/chaotic/self centered and causing unease to those around you by your behaviors and you really should be more aware of how you impact others
    4. Fe-isms??
    (Pls note this is simply an NeTe guess, just to provide structure to the discussion and is in no way meant to be "right"-I am actually seeking correction and clarification and understanding

    Any ideas or thoughts?


  2. #2
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I'm not sure I understand the question correctly, but if you are asking how someone might suggest to an FJ how to "grow", I think what you need is extreme subtlety. Fe will try to assign "unspoken meaning" to everything and will easily feel offended by things spoken too directly. I think Fe prides itself for being considerate/thoughtful/helpful, so try not to suggest otherwise because the FJ would be extremely hurt by this.

    The most important thing that will make me decide to change is to see how other people are affected by my actions. So, I'd say it's something like this

    1) Set the stage: Fe likes to know where you're coming from so it can have an appropriate response.
    2) Slowly lead into the topic: Introduce the idea slowly through the flow of the conversation
    3) Hint how the FJ's action is affecting you or other people: Be gentle and don't use 'judging' words like "disrespectful" or "self-centered" -- describe how you or other people feel instead
    4) Be sympathetic and say you understand why the FJ was doing what they were doing: After realizing how they have wronged others, Fe will be devastated and depressed/defensive, etc. depending on the FJ's health level, so it's nice to reassure them that you understand and you don't hate them

    So let's say I have been under a lot of stress which puts me in a bad mood and I flip out over every little thing that doesn't go as planned and I'm making everyone's life miserable. A good way for someone to point this out to me would be:

    1) "How are you? I've heard that things are rough at work."
    - Yeah.
    2) "You know, everyone's a little bit worried about you lately."
    - Don't worry. I'm okay. I can handle it.
    3) "It seems that you've been so stressed that when things go wrong you get extremely upset. I think X was a little hurt yesterday when you snapped at him."
    - That's because I told him X, but then he did Y!
    "Yes. But I think he would respond much better if you do [...] instead. I talked to him and he said he felt like you were mad at him all the time now."
    - It's not like that at all!
    4) "I totally understand. It's just things might be a bit overwhelming at the moment, especially with all the changes at your work. I know how rough it was when I was going through [...] last year."

    (Continue to talk about problems)

    It's not a perfect example, but I'd be okay with something like that. Remember, the trick is to hint, hint, hint how other people are feeling bad and that you understand why the FJ is acting that way. Fe has a natural tendency to consider the well-being of the group, so the FJ will know that some adjustment on their part is needed.

    Something like that?
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  3. #3
    Glycerine
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    Basically I analyze everything. I am very critical of myself and others and then try to come up w/ ways I can improve myself from my analysis... if it's important enough.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Basically I analyze everything. I am very critical of myself and others and then try to come up w/ ways I can improve myself from my analysis... if it's important enough.
    ^ Ditto, this for sure!

    Almost daily I reflect and think of what I can do to be a better person or how I can do a better job. Staying positive, having endurance, and being resilient is also essential (for me anyway) for growth and change.

    I am actually going through some growing pains right now, it tough....but I'm not going to give up! I have a plan... muahahahahaaa (evil laugh).
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  5. #5
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    ^ Ditto, this for sure!

    Almost daily I reflect and think of what I can do to be a better person or how I can do a better job. Staying positive, having endurance, and being resilient is also essential (for me anyway) for growth and change.
    I am actually going through some growing pains right now, it tough....but I'm not going to give up! I have a plan... muahahahahaaa (evil laugh).
    Good luck. I bet you will do well.

    On another note, it annoys me when people criticize me on what I did.like you're being "rude", "inconsiderate", etc because I have already probably thought of it....

  6. #6
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Good luck. I bet you will do well.

    On another note, it annoys me when people criticize me on what I did.like you're being "rude", "inconsiderate", etc because I have already probably thought of it....
    Thanks, I just hope they give me a chance to do well lol! I am trying so hard...
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  7. #7
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Fe will try to assign "unspoken meaning" to everything
    Is this not a Ni thing also or instead? Or a Fe+Ni combo?
    I don't note this in SFJs so much...

    -------

    I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

    I've had this experience with several INFJs:
    You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

    I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #8
    Glycerine
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    @OrangeAppledI can be bit like that if people dismiss and don't try to understand why I did a certain action. When they do understand it, I will change typically if it's warranted. I guess I take offense that they don't try to understand my perspective even if it seems like it's the dumbest shit on earth.

    I have gotten into fights like that over the use of "fuck" (or "shit") out of frustration and then my INFP mom will give me a full-blown lecture on why I shouldn't use the word "fuck" or "shit" because it offends her (although she uses the words occasionally the same way).

    If I am being an ass, I will always apologize.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

    I've had this experience with several INFJs:
    You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

    I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?
    Odd... I seem to remember an INFJ making the same complaint about INFPs in another thread - this tendency to think actions aren't harmful if their intentions are good, I mean.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  10. #10
    Glycerine
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    @Viridian I think Fs (and Ts) tend to do it when they are deluded and blindsided by their own values. I see it consistently in both Fe and Fi users. I might have been the one who started that thread you are referring to. The thing is people typically don't like to be imposed upon if they think they are right....

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