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  1. #11
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud of Thunder View Post
    I wonder what traits that NF's share could be used for nefarious or morally ambiguous purposes. Since this group is considered the most empathetic or even ethically concerned, how does the dark side (or the Shadow, I guess) manifest among NF's?
    for INFJs, supposedly our shadow side is ESTP, so when stressed we might engage in sensate overindulging, etc. I'll quote an online site that seems decent enough:

    Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTP. Example characteristics are:

    acting very impulsively, making decisions without thinking them through
    doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
    being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
    being preoccupied about unimportant details and doing things that have no meaning
    acting in a very materialistic and selfish way
    cutting corners, breaking the rules, and even contradicting the INFJ's own values

    The shadow is part of the unconscious that is often visible to others, onto whom the shadow is projected. The INFJ may therefore readily see these faults in others without recognising it in him/her self.
    I'd say that is accurate for me. Haven't been there in a while though.
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  2. #12
    Step into my office. Luv Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    NFs could easily become like Rorschach from Watchmen if they were to deem those around them to be "morally inferior".
    My unhealthy side in a nutshell. Exactly.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Idealatious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    NFs could easily become like Rorschach from Watchmen if they were to deem those around them to be "morally inferior".
    Ooh, good example with Rorschach! Though I'm not totally convinced he's NF; I'd have to reread the comic. Can anyone think of any other NF characters (or seemingly NF ones) who are evil/antagonists/morally ambiguous? I can't really, but I'm sure they exist. I'd like to see an evil INF_ character. I'm equal opportunity for evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    I also can totally switch off from people, kind of go cold, shut down from them and never talk to them again.
    I guess I sometimes do, kind of. I burn bridges a lot, but maybe that's more I than NF? :/ hmm. I can imagine unfortunate implications of an idealistic outlook. I can definitely imagine the dark side of 4s, but that's only because I'm a 4. Unfortunately, a lot of NF descriptions emphasize "nice nice altruism people friendly nice."

  4. #14
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idealatious View Post
    Ooh, good example with Rorschach! Though I'm not totally convinced he's NF; I'd have to reread the comic. Can anyone think of any other NF characters (or seemingly NF ones) who are evil/antagonists/morally ambiguous? I can't really, but I'm sure they exist. I'd like to see an evil INF_ character. I'm equal opportunity for evil.
    A good place to start: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ntiheroes.html
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  5. #15
    Step into my office. Luv Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idealatious View Post
    Ooh, good example with Rorschach! Though I'm not totally convinced he's NF; I'd have to reread the comic. Can anyone think of any other NF characters (or seemingly NF ones) who are evil/antagonists/morally ambiguous? I can't really, but I'm sure they exist. I'd like to see an evil INF_ character. I'm equal opportunity for evil.

    I guess I sometimes do, kind of. I burn bridges a lot, but maybe that's more I than NF? :/ hmm. I can imagine unfortunate implications of an idealistic outlook. I can definitely imagine the dark side of 4s, but that's only because I'm a 4. Unfortunately, a lot of NF descriptions emphasize "nice nice altruism people friendly nice."
    I see Rorschach as F more than T, even though everybody always types him as T because he's outwardly stoic, cold, an "objective" detective, etc. Sure, he strove for objectivity, but it seems to me that his emotions fueled pretty much every decision he made. His empathy for victims was so great, and his anger toward the unjust so unbearable, that he began attacking offenders directly in episodes of pure, unchecked rage.

    A long time ago, when I was trying to discern the differences between thinking and feeling functions, I read a comparative description that stuck with me. It maintained that thinkers would probably have an easier time killing a few innocents to preserve the safety of the group as a whole. (It's not that they enjoy it by any means, they're just better mentally equipped for weighing those options and making those sacrifices.) Feelers, on the other hand, are more likely to spit bile and freak out because they can't rationalize such a thing as easily. It's the "would you kill the scared child that can't stop crying so the enemy won't spot your hiding place?" scenario. I don't know how other thinkers and feelers might relate to that comparison, but it definitely resonates with me, haha. The Watchmen scenario was similar, just on a grander scale.

    I'm less sure about Rorschach's N vs. S, though. He was described as tactically brilliant, and he'd constantly use his environment to great advantage. Very physically attuned to his immediate surroundings. That seems more sensing. But, he frequently had theories before he had any evidence, and he was given to paranoia and neuroticism about things that hadn't happened yet (even if he turned out to be more or less correct). I've often heard the "NF" referred to as having a bit of a "martyr complex," especially INFs, so that would fit, too. I don't know, it's a tough call. And anyway, that's just my take on it. I'm sure lots of you would disagree.

    A lot of NF descriptions do make us look like a bunch of service-oriented saints. Always the good friend, the open listener, the kindly counselor, the wise mystic. Those descriptions always give me a mental image of an ethereal, benign creature - like a unicorn. I mean, really, what?! Sure, we can be good friends and insightful people, but I think many of us are prone to chaotic behavior as well. We can be hot and cold, manipulative and destructive. We can be elitist, judgmental, and preachy. We doorslam our relationships a lot. Let's face it, sometimes we're downright immature.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Idealatious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Hey, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiheroComplex View Post
    I see Rorschach as F more than T, even though everybody always types him as T because he's outwardly stoic, cold, an "objective" detective, etc. Sure, he strove for objectivity, but it seems to me that his emotions fueled pretty much every decision he made. His empathy for victims was so great, and his anger toward the unjust so unbearable, that he began attacking offenders directly in episodes of pure, unchecked rage.

    A long time ago, when I was trying to discern the differences between thinking and feeling functions, I read a comparative description that stuck with me. It maintained that thinkers would probably have an easier time killing a few innocents to preserve the safety of the group as a whole. (It's not that they enjoy it by any means, they're just better mentally equipped for weighing those options and making those sacrifices.) Feelers, on the other hand, are more likely to spit bile and freak out because they can't rationalize such a thing as easily. It's the "would you kill the scared child that can't stop crying so the enemy won't spot your hiding place?" scenario. I don't know how other thinkers and feelers might relate to that comparison, but it definitely resonates with me, haha. The Watchmen scenario was similar, just on a grander scale....
    Great analysis. Yeah, the more I think about the more I think INFJ would fit him. Especially opposed to alternatives of ISFJ or INTJ. Wow, now I want to watch the movie.

    That scenario... wow. That's a hard one. In theory, the lives of many should take precedence over the lives of a few, but when I imagine what I would actually do. Me, actually killing someone? aaaaaa. I'd do anything to find an alternative to death (cover the child's mouth! try to knock her unconscious!) and if unnecessary, would forever have to live with that guilt. ...Anyway, that's an interesting idea about F/T. Of course, no one really knows for sure what they would do in such a situation, so it's hard to say...

    Those INFs and their martyr complexes, hehe. I think ISFJs can often have it too - just in a less... N way, if that makes sense. In a less grandiose, I'm gonna die for my beliefs, manner. Maybe. But I do think it would be more of a defining characteristic for NFs than most other types.

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiheroComplex View Post
    A lot of NF descriptions do make us look like a bunch of service-oriented saints. Always the good friend, the open listener, the kindly counselor, the wise mystic. Those descriptions always give me a mental image of an ethereal, benign creature - like a unicorn. I mean, really, what?! Sure, we can be good friends and insightful people, but I think many of us are prone to chaotic behavior as well. We can be hot and cold, manipulative and destructive. We can be elitist, judgmental, and preachy. We doorslam our relationships a lot. Let's face it, sometimes we're downright immature.
    I had to stifle laughter in front of my sleeping roommate. Agreed! I was trying to find some good ENFP descriptions to send a friend a while ago; and I'm still unsure whether or not he could relate to them... The NF descriptions out there could easily cause an NF to think they're NT, I'd imagine.

  7. #17
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    i've only hated one person in my life.
    and he was in a coma soon after.

    i didn't do it.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  8. #18
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I have a dark humor and a dark side that I mainly keep hidden.

    On the surface levels of interaction, I can be crazily obsessed with things and tend to freak out, which somewhat graduates into TMI venting (chronic bitching) to the wrong people. I don't know if this is evil, but it annoys the fuck out of people.

  9. #19
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Yeah, i manipulate, often without even meaning to.

    I also can totally switch off from people, kind of go cold, shut down from them and never talk to them again.

    I have a long rope limit, but once it's reached that person gets door slammed.
    Yes, this sort of thing.

    In certain (rare) cases I have pretty much a total inability to forgive. Major grudge-holding. I can go from a huge amount of love for someone to a huge amount of - at least dislike, maybe hate. Which is bad on so many levels... I think that's the darkest thing about me.

    I can have a bit of a superiority complex sometimes, too.
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  10. #20
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yes, this sort of thing.

    In certain (rare) cases I have pretty much a total inability to forgive. Major grudge-holding. I can go from a huge amount of love for someone to a huge amount of - at least dislike, maybe hate. Which is bad on so many levels... I think that's the darkest thing about me.

    I can have a bit of a superiority complex sometimes, too.
    I do this too. The problem is I think INFJ tends to not feeling too guilty of this because once then shun someone off, they can be easily blocked from our memory. I think it has to do with the high expectation and projecting it to people who are dear to us. One possible reason is that we tend to invest our entire trust to someone once s/he has passed our inner-judgment test, especially INFJ tend to have very small circle of friends. Being a conflict avoider doesn't help either. We kept collecting and holding grudges and perhaps the flaws that we've been accumulated from others could be seen as a point of no return.

    I once remember that my friend commented on me that I tend to put people into three distinctive categories. Either I really like or hate someone, or the rest are all the same in the mid-zone. So she said it's quite easy for her (an ENFJ) to figure out how I felt toward someone based on my comment about people.

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