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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    You may sense when people tell lies sometimes but when it comes to emotions, the inability to read and see through people is a gulf.
    We are clearly getting closer to what I was looking for when starting this thread. I'd like to hear more in-depth thoughts about it, though.
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  2. #32
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    For me I agree with other INFJs that I have a track-record for each person in my head, I remember little incidences and if there are too many negative incidences that make me distrust the person they will go on my "To be watched" list or if necessary on the "Shit list". It might seem like a very judgmental way of dealing with people but I pick up these discrepancies just naturally, it's actually a very rational process, a bit like a maths equation, "someone not keeping their word + someone talking badly about others + someone lieing = person not to be trusted".

    I am not sure I can always immediately see through a person. However I have sometimes met people where from the very first moment I have felt that they are sincere and trustworthy and I tend to be right in the long run, I can't remember any of these people ever turning out to be crooks.
    Exactly. Things add up over time. It's tough because I don't want to be a score-keeper and "keep account of the injury", as it says in the Bible. But nonetheless, eventually you build up a picture of whether someone is really consistent and trustworthy; or if they are consistently inconsistent and manipulative; or if you can still care about them and like them, but you can't take them too seriously because they never follow through; etc. It's just reality. I don't think you can forever keep people's slate clean, it's naive and unrealistic. It's just part of getting to know people.

    First impressions are...interesting. I think my own are, overall, more trustworthy than I have given myself credit for in the past.

    In all honesty, I can even think of times when I've met an attractive man and while finding him attractive, felt that something was a bit off with him as well (overly charming, kinda flaky, a bit narcissistic or arrogant, etc); but perhaps not getting to know him well at that time. Later we've become closer and I've become really attracted, and perhaps felt discounted my first impression or felt that I was mistaken about it. When things have fallen apart in one way or another and I have sorted through my emotions about him/the situation - I have realised that my final impression after whatever has happened is in fact VERY similar - except more detailed/developed - to my first impression. When I look back at a handful of occasions in my life like this, I realise that this is very much the pattern. So if your initial impression of someone is that they're a bit "off", be very wary about getting close enough to feel attracted.

    EDIT: Wow, you know, the more I think about this and how it has played out in my life (my first impression almost always being confirmed in the end, even if it has altered in some intermediate phase), the more I think it's almost always true. Either in a romantic context or for friendship/acquaintanceship. I need to think about this some more...
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  3. #33
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
    I can see that quite a few have challenged the suggestion that INTJs could excell in reading people. Well, the MBTI also suggests that INTJs have Fi as their tertiary preference yet that's sometimes not that easy to believe when reading these forums

    Quite a few type descriptions say something like this: "Fellow workers of INTJs often feel as if the INTJ can see right through them, and finds them wanting. This tendency of people to feel transparent in the presence of the INTJ often result in relationships which have psychological distance." On the other hand, it might actually sound more logical that INTPs could be even better equipped for such reading.

    I am not writing here to judge who does or doesn't have this ability. I am just curious to read any comments regarding it now that I sense some of it in me as well.
    I think some of this has to do with very strongly developed Ni + developed Fi, which would be a reason INTJs get better at it as they become older. Ni excels at wading through complexity, ambiguity and forming perceptions. Human behavior and reactions are extremely complex. So, with enough experience, I think an INTJ can be pretty good at reading people. I've also read that Ni can help to serve as a "rough approximation" for feeling judgement. I know exactly what this means because I experience it all the time but have a hard time explaining it.

    Also, the INTJ looks for flaws all the time and what can be improved. If you combine that with what is typically a combination of being highly perceptive, insightful, intensity, coming across as impassive, and low expression of appreciation, which are all common to many INTJs, it is easy to see why some people would be intimidated or felt "wanting".

    Note also, the comment is more about what people feel in the INTJs presence than an INTJ's magical ability to read people though some level of perceptiveness is implied.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think some of this has to do with very strongly developed Ni + developed Fi, which would be a reason INTJs get better at it as they become older. Ni excels at wading through complexity, ambiguity and forming perceptions. Human behavior and reactions are extremely complex. So, with enough experience, I think an INTJ can be pretty good at reading people. I've also read that Ni can help to serve as a "rough approximation" for feeling judgement. I know exactly what this means because I experience it all the time but have a hard time explaining it.
    Sounds reasonable and I can relate to that.

    One thing not yet mentioned is the INTJs' ability to learn or comprehend basically anything they happen to be interested in. Now, if there is an INTJ who for whatever reason has a need to develop skills like understanding people, why wouldn't he/she be able to learn that as well?
    INTJ, HSP, 1w9 or tritype 154, sx/sp

  5. #35
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
    Sounds reasonable and I can relate to that.

    One thing not yet mentioned is the INTJs' ability to learn or comprehend basically anything they happen to be interested in. Now, if there is an INTJ who for whatever reason has a need to develop skills like understanding people, why wouldn't he/she be able to learn that as well?
    I could be wrong, but I very much get the impression that a lot of INTJs simply aren't interested. (I get that impression online, anyway; IRL could be a different story.)
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  6. #36
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    One other thought. At a young age, I received some advice. "Put yourself in the other person's shoes." It is advice which is perfectly tailored for someone who prefers Fi. So, I personally have done that for years. At first, I would think "what would I do, think or feel if I were them." That only gets you so far though because as an INTJ, which is a relatively rare type of person, you're surrounded by SJs and SPs and you think so completely differently than so many other people. I ran into a wall because I discovered that others were so different than me. Then I discovered MBTI. I began to add into the equation (as one input or variable), what would I think if I were them and I were an ISTJ, some kind of NT, INFP, or SP, or Si, or Te dom, or whatever. It helped. This was useful even if the information is imprecise, it's difficult to type people accurately, etc. It's not the equivalent of having Fi or Fe much higher up in the stack, but it's a way of compensating. Then, you can ask people directly what they think or you can ask what others who know them well believe they think or are feeling, or ask them if they believe your perceptions seem valid. It's gathering all these different data points and forming a perception. The desire to form an understanding of the situation drives you to look at these data points and come to some sort of insight or conclusion as to what is going on.

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    One other thought. At a young age, I received some advice. "Put yourself in the other person's shoes." It is advice which is perfectly tailored for someone who prefers Fi. So, I personally have done that for years. At first, I would think "what would I do, think or feel if I were them." That only gets you so far though because as an INTJ, which is a relatively rare type of person, you're surrounded by SJs and SPs and you think so completely differently than so many other people. I ran into a wall because I discovered that others were so different than me. Then I discovered MBTI. I began to add into the equation (as one input or variable), what would I think if I were them and I were an ISTJ, some kind of NT, INFP, or SP, or Si, or Te dom, or whatever. It helped. This was useful even if the information is imprecise, it's difficult to type people accurately, etc. It's not the equivalent of having Fi or Fe much higher up in the stack, but it's a way of compensating. Then, you can ask people directly what they think or you can ask what others who know them well believe they think or are feeling, or ask them if they believe your perceptions seem valid. It's gathering all these different data points and forming a perception. The desire to form an understanding of the situation drives you to look at these data points and come to some sort of insight or conclusion as to what is going on.
    Very well put. I have quite a few times tried to explain what it is that makes MBTI so interesting to me and that was the story I have been trying to grasp

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    I could be wrong, but I very much get the impression that a lot of INTJs simply aren't interested. (I get that impression online, anyway; IRL could be a different story.)
    Well, I am not a pure INTJ but in my case the reason for such interest is that in order to achieve some (quite a few) of my goals, I have had to take leadership roles in various voluntary organizations.

    In a voluntary organization, you can't motivate people with money so you have to offer them something more personal, and to be able to do that, you have to understand their motivations for doing what they do.
    INTJ, HSP, 1w9 or tritype 154, sx/sp

  8. #38
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandalf View Post

    Well, I am not a pure INTJ but in my case the reason for such interest is that in order to achieve some (quite a few) of my goals, I have had to take leadership roles in various voluntary organizations.

    In a voluntary organization, you can't motivate people with money so you have to offer them something more personal, and to be able to do that, you have to understand their motivations for doing what they do.
    Yes, definitely many INTJs will have an interest in this. Either for business sort of purposes, or because they want to have better relations with people important to them, etc. But I think the "Fe fakeness" thread, for one, showed that there are INTJs who have little or no interest (at least online, like I said) in "understanding" people so as to communicate with them better. There was a lot of disparagement of diplomatic communication styles and that sort of thing.

    My mom is probably an INTJ type 5. She's a very compassionate person with those who she really values and is close to (mainly her family), but that number of people is small - she's pretty restrictive about who she gets close to. My impression is that with these sorts of people, she can be deeply perceptive. I have to say, although my own perspective has changed given I've obviously known her my whole life and am now in my early thirties - I think she's more emotionally perceptive than she used to be, and she can be very much so with people like me or my dad. But she has said that with people in general, she finds that they are difficult, messy and emotional and she finds it exhausting.

    I think she also tends to be right about people who she has a bad first impression/gut feeling about. Although it is my impression that she is right most of the time and it maybe makes her over-confident (probably an Ni-dom problem in general..except for type 6 like me?!). When she's off she can be way off but it's not that often...
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  9. #39
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
    in my case the reason for such interest is that in order to achieve some (quite a few) of my goals, I have had to take leadership roles
    Same here.

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  10. #40
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Also, the INTJ looks for flaws all the time and what can be improved. If you combine that with what is typically a combination of being highly perceptive, insightful, intensity, coming across as impassive, and low expression of appreciation, which are all common to many INTJs, it is easy to see why some people would be intimidated or felt "wanting".
    Yes. Perhaps we don't so much see through people, as see through whatever front or window-dressing they are displaying. I have the sense that I can size up someone and determine what they are good for, as in what they are capable of. Perhaps they are name-dropping and throwing around alot of jargon, but have no real practical skills; or are overly modest, even lacking confidence, but in fact more able than they realize. I am limited in what kinds of attributes I can sense through the veneer, though. I suspect F users will see much of what I miss. In any case, some people may find this disquieting, hence the comments in the INTJ descriptions.
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