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  1. #161
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Ah, thank you. I feel a little less despair now. Certainly more appreciated for what I'm good at! That tracking thing is the crux of it -- if the INFJ feels you're not tracking in return, that's a huge reason, you put your finger right on it, for deflecting further interaction. It's not that there's some magic word or formula, it's that the appearance of critical disclosures not registering is terrifying. What's the point in talking about things if you don't remember what we talked about? That's how it sometimes appears to us, I think.

    It sounds like it's not that you don't remember, more like you don't see that it continues to apply?

  2. #162
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I try not to get involved with threads requesting xNFP-only perspective or advice. I actually didn't feel like I should post in this thread because it is titled INFJs from the perspectives of other types, and I am one. But I loved Saturned's post so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    One of the best lessons I have learned in life is this: The burden of being understood lays primarily with me and not on the rest of the world. If I am feeling misunderstood then I need to explain myself better or simply accept that the other person may not be able to understand where I am coming from on an issue.

    So if what you guys need is discussing the why of something - that's helpful to hear; I can better tailor my discussions with my INFJs then. Just don't assume that everyone will naturally understand what you need right off the bat. And sometimes it may end up working out that you need to seek out a fellow INFJ to vent to in order to get that extra layer of understanding. Otherwise let us know how we can help you and respect that we are doing our best when we put forth an effort.
    I've talked about aspects of this issue (only from a personal perspective, not so much a functionalist one) that I see in myself on the forum in a lot of different threads. I'm sorry if this seems nauseatingly self-referential. Its a chronology sharing my experiences of trying to grow in understanding of myself and toward others. Maybe other INFJs can relate and the other types can see something of value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I have these same feelings. Its like I get to point where I say "show me how much you want to put into this". I usually think it is pretty obvious, but I suppose I need to work at expressing it verbally to those who might not understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    If I'm in a bad way, I definitely have the tape of my greatest hits of mess ups, mistakes, and embarrassing moments playing full blast in my mind. Stupid trivial things going back years and years and years. Its oppressive. This creates a lens through which I start to see all reality as variation on a theme. And yet I am loathe to communicate about it to others, because then I feel like I am burdening them, and also because it is hard to show weakness. Especially when a lot of their remedies (go out, be with the people) just tax my reserves and exacerbate the isolated feelings. I want people to reach me, but they can't really. I want them to give me what I need instead of what they need. But now I realize that is kind of impossible for them to know, and I'm not sure I can even say what that is. I'm more grateful to them when they accept me back without punishment or weirdness, since a lot of times they take it personally as if I'm having problems with them rather than with me. And that just overloads an already overburdened spirit.

    So, I'm not sure if that describes martyrdom exactly. In my mind martyrdom says "See, how I suffer for you!" But I'm not suffering for them. Acting a martyr is totally unappealing to me, but I can definitely see how INFJs present that way with all the counsel we give and don't receive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    When I ruminate on it, I feel bad about the fact that I consider myself a quality, caring person, and I know people like me and yet I have let a lot of people fall away from me and have not fought to keep them emotionally close. So now I feel like I am the one falling alone. I wonder have I grown cold. Maybe you recall the scene in Labyrinth. Sarah is surrounded by all these "helping hands" in a tunnel, but she is freaked by them and doesn't want them all grabbing her, and she demands they let go. But then when they all let go she is falling, and she tries in vain to grasp them again, but its too late. She is falling, alone and afraid, straight down. I feel like this. It is hard for me to deal with I get very emotional and sad about it. In the past, I would just not examine it for very long. I think that is why I started investigating MBTI stuff again lately, to try to gain insight into my personality preferences and how it manifests in my behavior and state of mind. I hope that I can improve myself with some insight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    So, if I am following the conversation, others feel hurt by the fact that people are not tending to INFJs emotionally in the way that INFJs tend to them. And some expressed a desire for others to just try or think or listen harder in order to do that. And some even went as far as saying others should let themselves be more emotional. I hope I am depicting this properly. So while I understand this desire, logically I know its no fairer to say that to them than for someone to say to me "be less sensitive, be less emotional". Which they do, in fact (the ones that I trust enough to show) therefore I fully understand the appeal in a fantasy of an NF dominated world. I am in favor of people casting aside fear of showing emotions and/or tenderness and especially listening more, but they will do that in their way, not mine necessarily. So, what if these other people who seem to be stubbornly resisting noticing and reacting to INFJ pain simply cannot, or cannot do it in our way?

    I don't know if I'm really the "come on too strong" type. Forcing intimacy is not my thing. Serving up judgments isn't attractive. Respecting boundaries feels comfortable. But I do believe in reaching out to the hurt because it seems right, I desire that myself, and in experience its appreciated. Yet a desire to not burden others, personal hangups, and a sinister suspicion that no one really cares can keep me from letting the less-adept-at-noticing (but still kind) types around me know when I am in turmoil. And they do want to know. Nobody likes to feel like a chump who can't pay a debt (not that emotional support is debts & credits). They want to feel valuable to me the way I have been valuable to them. In love this isn't an issue, but in friendships it comes up.

    I have no interest in chasing someone who doesn't want to be around me. I will not suffer emotional vampires. In the best cases, a beautiful harmony happens when there exists some natural noticing and understanding talent on their part and a willingness to open up and allow myself to need (rather than only be needed) on my part. My upbringing was nomadic and I grew used to the transience of all things and people, some beloved, just falling away. Going through that made me sort of tragically self-reliant in the way SilkRoad described. The idea of floating off into space cold, lonely and unconnected does scare me, but I truly do not think it has to be that way for any of us.

    I agree that ENFP friends are so wonderful! Treasure them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    This INFJ doesn't have a problem naming the emotions that I feel in response to something, but I do like to think on them, ruminate on them, because often I come to new insights during that process. Emotions aren't suppressed or tossed (were it that easy!) more like they are understood, new facets are discovered, and incorporated. I don't even think it qualifies as sublimation, but it may sound that way to those who have happen to have another preference. Maybe it is like the water cycle, evaporation and transpiration are a process over time. Water in so many forms, transforming but also balancing. Your way to "give it understanding" might be different, but this is mine.

    In my understanding and experience Fe isn't about being blunt, its more about shared feelings in a dynamic. Perhaps that is part of why when I received the suggestion about how to deal with injured feelings, it was for me a new method of reacting: to take the initiative and be up front and crystal clear about an emotional response, but in a productive way that honestly and directly moves that dynamic towards greater interpersonal understanding and possible conflict resolution. It's very likely true that functions don't correspond to behaviors in such a mechanical way. But I really thought that Orobas speaking her singular truth to this woman that cares for her and that she cares for could be a starting point to dissipate all the poisonous resentment, while leaving out the qualifying, apologizing statements, and also the assumptive negative value judgments. So is that Fe or Fi or neither or both?

    If NFPs feel its not safe to freely share thoughts on Fi sometimes or that the INFP type is prejudiced against, I can definitely relate because here Fe gets railed against hard and often. But if its done in reaction to some personal pain someone experiences in real life or is cathartic in some way, I have empathy for that, and theres not much point in denying what they go through, or getting outwardly defensive. I just try to speak for myself.
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  3. #163
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Vasilisa, you have such a lovely way.

  4. #164
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ah, thank you. I feel a little less despair now. Certainly more appreciated for what I'm good at! That tracking thing is the crux of it -- if the INFJ feels you're not tracking in return, that's a huge reason, you put your finger right on it, for deflecting further interaction. It's not that there's some magic word or formula, it's that the appearance of critical disclosures not registering is terrifying. What's the point in talking about things if you don't remember what we talked about? That's how it sometimes appears to us, I think.

    It sounds like it's not that you don't remember, more like you don't see that it continues to apply?
    Speaking for myself (and not all of INFP-dom), I think part of it is that I tend to project possibilities based on the current moment. So while I'm very likely to remember anything of personal or emotional weight that others share, I still tend to see see multiple interpretations, meanings and options based on the other person's current actions and affect. I'm fairly likely to sense what someone is feeling... I'm far less likely to be certain of the why.

    I guess the primary thing I lack is a sure sense of inevitability. Because I tend to see possibilities at every point, nothing is inevitable. Of course in real life and relationships, one can pass a point after which someone is likely to get hurt or be disappointed. It's been a hard lesson for me to learn (imperfectly) to be aware of that point. In the real world there are points of no return, despite the best of intentions.

    Also, in thinking about INFJ/INFP interactions, I think one of my closest INFJ friends from college flexed in our relationship (which I've mentioned before). He learned not to read the long gaps in communication as rejection, but only after we continued to touch base—however sporadically!—over the years. So it's not always the INFP who flexes, even though I agree that's more often the case.

  5. #165
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    @Vasilisa

    Thanks for your posts. There were some points which touched on frustrations I've had with INFJs, points few will list as their flaws (including the resistance to name their flaws; which I now see is about it being "hard to show weakness"). Of course, I'm a lot more blunt in my descriptions of how I perceive INFJ flaws, so it's not like I expect someone to say, "Yes, I play a martyr". I sort of just seek to see how they get to a point in their head so that it appears that way to me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #166
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    As someone said earlier, it does really help to have a chance to talk things out. However, it is important to me that the person I am talking to will not create more emotional white noise for me, by placing too much emphasis on my emotional state (which is transient and not an integral part of my identity), and it helps if they understand that my identity is very much bound up in my ideas/how I do my work etc. I think that's why I would have found PB's approach embarrassing - I would already be feeling a little unsure of myself, and then would feel that not only did others notice, but they also agreed that I wasn't doing well in one of the areas that largely defines what I think of myself!
    Yes, I remember this has come up in another thread. I think it was @OrangeAppled who once said something to the effect of: INFJs are free with their emotions and protective of their ideas, and INFPs are free with their ideas and protective of their emotions.

    It's interesting though, for you to mention this in regards to this situation; that you would be embarrassed that your ideas weren't be valued due to the distraction your emotions created. I wouldn't have thought of it that way...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The analogy for xNFPs is that leaving options open ends up making INFJs guess what you mean, and like my story, they're going to guess wrong a lot.
    Interesting. The thing is this so hard for me to get my head around. INFPs think of INFJs as masters of interpreting human behaviour, particularly coded social interaction. We just assume they will get it without having to guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Random

    Last Spring, a co-worker's beloved wife and mother of his children was hit by a truck and died of her injuries a couple of days after. Since then, some days he doesn't speak. Some days he goes in his office and shuts the door, comes out after a couple of hours and leaves for the day. He screwed up some stuff with his money in minor way (paid one account twice, didn't pay the other one at all so that card was shut off). He can be standing right in front of something that's marked for him, and doesn't notice it. He seems perfectly solid one day and the next he's just not there.

    Never at any point did I think of asking him what was the matter. I know what's the matter. His wife got hit by a truck and died.

    Maybe twice, when he has happened to be physically close to me and there's nobody else around (like in the pantry getting coffee, or by the mail drop), I have very quietly asked "You all right?" Mostly he avoids eye contact, nods briefly, proceeds.
    One time he volunteer a little bit about specifically what was on his mind at that time, which was wondering if he would ever feel normal again, that he kept waiting to be how he used to be and the longer it takes, the more he wonders if it will never happen.

    It never ever occurred to me that this is against me or that he doesn't like me anymore, or that the reason is anything other than what he already told me.

    So if somebody tells me they're going through a divorce, and their performance is somewhat erratic, I don't feel a need to ask them, even a month later, what's the matter.

    That's all I'm saying.

    There's something about perception of time and space here, I don't know how to put my finger on it, but it's like Fi can't anchor itself to any reality, or like they expect the framework to have unexpectedly changed all of a sudden. I have an INFP friend (surprise, surprise, Peacebaby!) whose connection with me is about color, and she says things like "I just can't get my head around so-and-so's palette." Ok, it's not something you have to make up in your head. Look at the pictures.

    What is this part of it, because that seems like the problem, to me. *edit to explain further, because the not explaining further seems to be a problem* -- I feel like INFPs make work for themselves when there isn't any. The reason the INFJ told you that one personal thing and did not go any further into it is because she expected that you would remember and understand -- that's the reference point she gave you, that she is a person going through a divorce. So I don't understand why your mind goes all over the place all the time. If she hadn't given you the reference point, I could understand it. But it's like, to me, with all respect, you make work for yourself and then blame the other person. "I try so hard, I bend, I understand, I empathize, you don't appreciate me, you make me work harder, why do I have to work so hard?" You don't!
    I see what you're getting at. I suppose it can seem like we're intentionally over-complicating things - I have been accused of doing this my whole life. Really its that INFPs are so aware of the complexities in life and we're attempting to get our head around them. It can be pretty hard though, to be accused of manufacturing complexity just to create unnecessary drama.

    It's difficult to explain if you don't see the world that way. Sometimes it's a case of me knowing all the literal facts of something but still not really *knowing* them. It hasn't clicked yet because I have only been in contact with the superficial, surface elements and not the essence. It's like how, although I'm a sensitive and emotional person, I can watch a hundred sad movies and not cry. Everyone else might cry, but I can only acknowledge that it's sad in a detached sense, even if I am caught up in the story. However, then I watch a particular film and I bawl like a friggin' baby. Why? because it hit a truth nerve and I really *got* the emotional atmosphere in a deep and inexplicable way. I didn't just see that it was sad, I discovered what it *meant* to feel like that. So you may be somewhat right, that INFPs sometimes find it difficult to anchor to reality, but the issue is that we view reality differently and struggle to connect with it in a literal sense.

    So in the scenario you raised, yes it's obvious the man is upset because his wife died. To me this is simply a literal fact and it doesn't really explore the emotional issues involved. The event would be a Pandora's Box of emotion for him. Besides the obvious feeling of loss, he may feel stressed dealing with the changes in his life and having to cope alone. He may feel devastated that he is going to have to raise their children alone and that they will be forever be without their mother. He may be finding it difficult to do everyday things such as go to work. He may be overwhelmed with legal and insurance issues. These are the potential feelings I would be concerned about when I saw him behaving out of character. And people react differently to such a traumatic event - some will find some issues easier to cope with then others. The pain is always framed in a way specific and particular to that person, so you can't really make too many assumptions about what they're going through. I imagine this would be a similar PB had in her case. She knew about the woman's divorce and that this would be upsetting, but what she was trying to address were the specific feelings (Does she think it's her fault the marriage failed? Does she doubt her ability to find happiness again? Does she feel lost and alone? Or bitter and angry? Is her confidence knocked? Or perhaps it was nothing to do with the divorce and at this moment is she just stressed about work issues? etc etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, so ... as regards the topic, "INFJs From The Perspective Of Other Types," I suppose the conclusion is:
    Do. Not. Like.
    Certainly not. I suppose what we've been currently discussing is how INFPs can find them so perplexing and surprisingly different from themselves
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  7. #167
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Have been pondering on this thread through the day .. thought I would add just a little bit that comes to mind.

    The example I gave wasn't intended to ask anyone whether they thought I had taken the right approach or not. The example was intended to uncover the pattern of response, meaning, I knew that almost every INFJ would see my error and respond quite negatively to it. In examining that response, my hope was to point out that, to other people, this kind of makes INFJ's feel a bit dangerous:

    1.) you could misstep and be taken to task for your misstep
    2.) today could be OK and tomorrow be in "trouble"
    3.) your whole relationship seems to hinge on doing things "right"

    That whole "eggshell" thing.

    I lost sight of why I shared the example for a bit because I felt I was being judged and taken to task on what I did or did not do. I do appreciate what has been shared about "tracking" and the trouble with open-ended-ness - I do keep track of a lot of stuff too, and perhaps I keep track of too many things and that clouds the immediacy of the moment in deciding what approach will work best for an INFJ. The comments shared thus far are noted and appreciated - although I will never quite rival an Fe user's touch, I do care deeply about others and serve to meet people in their own spaces and this information will hopefully help me in future.

    Sharing that example opened up some thoughts on that era too last night - another time that summer (I'm not even sure I knew she was INFJ then, just knew we had the NF click) I noted some frustration and upset. This time I watched for a bit ... and in the break room, overheard the source of her despair that day. She had shot 6 over par when she was out playing golf with her Dad that morning. Did the divorce, as an over-arching theme, make the loss on the green more devastating?

    Perhaps, but I will never know.

    -----

    INFJ's impress me with their focus on their goals, the sense of their evolution. They are wired to see how to get the best out of others, and they are a positive force of growth and change. There are many more reasons I like INFJ's and when I meet them, I generally want to be friends with them, so that's obviously a positive. If I didn't find much simpatico in the bond, I wouldn't pursue it. Yet it disconcerts me to feel it slipping through my fingers at times, for reasons I am not fully wired to appreciate. Just as, an INFJ is unable to meet me in my space, despite their caring. And I just don't expect anyone to, not anymore - maybe my internal framework makes that easier to accept, somehow? Or maybe I am just getting older and less idealistic.

    -----

    Last night, I woke up at 3:30 am, this thread on my mind, and I was dreaming of a giant chess board. To me, Fe is the giant chess board, and all the people are pieces on the board, each with their own role and "moves" and it's apparent to an Fe-er that when each piece moves, it changes the game and it's apparent how that affects every other piece, and the Fe user can see what moves will yield the most likely outcomes a few moves into the future. Or, at least, you kind of see everyone on the same board, together, like a harmony of movement. (Never mind the exact # of chess pieces, that ruins the whole metaphor.) Fi is like each person playing on their own board, but each person is a player on each other's board too. Because everyone is playing their own game (kind of imagine a "real-life" chess tournament) it's not readily apparent how the moves of one player on their personal board will affect the outcome of the tournament overall. You have an awareness there will be impact. You sense everyone around you. But there's not a sense of certainty, there are so many games going on and so much to monitor to gauge the overall impression. Anything could happen. Anything could affect everything else.

    Or, perhaps you could think of every player on the Fe board sitting on a square and playing chess on their square of the chessboard. A little chessboard within the chessboard. Fi is that chessboard within the chessboard, kind of looking at the minutia and not seeing as clearly the bigger game being played.

    Anyways, when I have dreams about this stuff it's a good signal for taking a break.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #168
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Or, perhaps you could think of every player on the Fe board sitting on a square and playing chess on their square of the chessboard. A little chessboard within the chessboard. Fi is that chessboard within the chessboard, kind of looking at the minutia and not seeing as clearly the bigger game being played.
    I like this metaphor. I think what Fi sees more clearly than Fe is that everyone has different personal truths, has their own impressions of everything around them. What Fe sees more clearly than Fi is that there is also a shared "game", and a lot of the Fe communication frames things in terms of that common "game". (I am not using "game" derogatively, here, it's just a metaphor for the whole set of interactions.)

    This can be further generalized into the concept of "inner game" vs "outer game" (and this is not in the limited PUA sense where the "inner game" term gets used a lot):

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Gallwey
    The "inner game" is based upon certain principles in which an individual uses non-judgmental observations of critical variables, with the purpose of being accurate about these observations. If the observations are accurate, the person's body will adjust and correct automatically to achieve best performance. Gallwey was one of the first to demonstrate a comprehensive method of coaching that could be applied to many situations, and found himself lecturing more often to business leaders in the U.S. than to sports people.

    Tim Gallwey's work went on to found the current movement in business coaching, life coaching and executive coaching. One of the most well known exponents of business coaching is Sir John Whitmore, who popularised Graham Alexander's and Alan Fine's GROW model of the coaching process.

    In every human endeavor there are two arenas of engagement: the outer and the inner. The outer game is played on an external arena to overcome external obstacles to reach an external goal. The inner game takes place within the mind of the player and is played against such obstacles as fear, self-doubt, lapses in focus, and limiting concepts or assumptions. The inner game is played to overcome the self-imposed obstacles that prevent an individual or team from accessing their full potential.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I try not to get involved with threads requesting xNFP-only perspective or advice. I actually didn't feel like I should post in this thread because it is titled INFJs from the perspectives of other types, and I am one. But I loved Saturned's post so much.

    I've talked about aspects of this issue (only from a personal perspective, not so much a functionalist one) that I see in myself on the forum in a lot of different threads. I'm sorry if this seems nauseatingly self-referential. Its a chronology sharing my experiences of trying to grow in understanding of myself and toward others. Maybe other INFJs can relate and the other types can see something of value.



    If NFPs feel its not safe to freely share thoughts on Fi sometimes or that the INFP type is prejudiced against, I can definitely relate because here Fe gets railed against hard and often. But if its done in reaction to some personal pain someone experiences in real life or is cathartic in some way, I have empathy for that, and theres not much point in denying what they go through, or getting outwardly defensive. I just try to speak for myself.


    Great post of quotes that relate to what we are discussing! I know I have felt very similar many times in interactions with others. Learning about MBTI more has actually helped me to be more verbal about what I need instead of remaining annoyed and silent.

    @Tiltyred - I am getting what you are saying about "tracking" etc. The difference between us is that I may still ask someone a more open ended "what's going on?" because I don't want to direct how they respond to me.

    For example. My mom died last year and my dad and I both had some very tough days both before she died and after. My iNTP dad would say to me some days "I notice you seem really down. It must be about mom, huh?" Some days that bothered me because it wasn't always all about me grieving my mom. Some days it was 40% I Miss My Mom, 20% I feel like my life is stagnated, 30% Crap That Went On At Work, and 10% Misc. Hearing "it must be about mom" made me feel like me bringing up other stuff was petty. (I am not saying this was rational or my dad's intent at all, but it is one of the reasons I don't like asking people specific questions right off the bat. If someone has other things going on, I want them to feel comfortable saying that.)

    The approach I liked best is sort of a mix of INFX approaches: "I know you are having a tough time because of your mom. Is anything else going on that is bothering you?" (Acknowledge that you know what is going on in their life, but also allow for other variables that may be going on without one's current knowledge.)

    For me, at least, I am always considering multiple possibilities of what is going on. I have an INFJ friend that I really do have to ask "You seem upset today, what's going on?" simply because she is a mother of 5 (blended family with crappy exes on both sides), starting a new business for herself, going to grad school, etc. Because of that the answers have been (actual examples): My daughter puked on me right before I was leaving to see an important client, My son disappeared for 2 days at someone's house and didn't tell anyone, my stepson got into a car accident, my husband's exwife is suing us... etc.

    I have learned to be better about asking people updates on things going on in their lives. This doesn't come particularly naturally to me, but I know that other people really feel extra loved when I do it.

  10. #170
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    My iNTP dad would say to me some days "I notice you seem really down. It must be about mom, huh?" Some days that bothered me because it wasn't always all about me grieving my mom. Some days it was 40% I Miss My Mom, 20% I feel like my life is stagnated, 30% Crap That Went On At Work, and 10% Misc.
    Yes, it's worth emphasizing that this distinction is important to me too. At any given moment, I could quantify things that specifically too. Thus, the generic question, "How are things with you?" misses the mark. If I were to answer anyone as above, their eyes would glaze over. Therefore I just give a stock answer to that question, because it's easier and closer to what people expect to hear.

    Although, occasionally, I do get very detailed with the answer, just because - well, you asked, after all.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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