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  1. #151
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ look at all the WORK I had to do to help you realize your lights were off?

    See, your Te framework led your first thought to be, "What's wrong with that guy?" instead of "What's wrong with me?" If someone flicked their lights at me, I would immediately think I was being alerted to something, "What's wrong with me?".

    The same phenomenon exists with Fe. It's not just the obscuring of Ni here. It's that default first thought, and now that I've been studying, I see it in all my acquaintances and friends and family who are dom & aux Te or Fe. Their complaints revolve around how THE OTHER PEOPLEZ and / or THEIR IDEAZ R SO STUPID or so UNCARING and UNFAIR! (Now, I used to see it before, just had no labels in order to quantify percentages. And it's pretty much 100%)

    I have my own "faux Fe" and my own "baby Te" and it is pretty much my face to the world 24 / 7, except with the precious few who "speak Fi" and we can just trust that we are who we are and we say what we see and we just "get it".

    I don't think I can communicate further in this thread at this point without sounding whiny that it does get wearying IRL playing the chameleon, adapting to a whole whack of people who are incapable of communicating in little else but their default mode. And ALWAYS having to prove myself right in order to be heard! And it's necessary that I do, and I am grateful I have learned to, because otherwise, I'd be considered a whole way weirder than I already am.

    EDIT: it's probably why I and perhaps other NFP's get touchy talking about Fi on here and other types argue whether our Fi talk is right or not. It's like, "You guys are "right" about all your other stuff. Get off of Fi, it's the only thing we should legitimately get to be the authority of, without having to hear y'all disagreeing."

    DOUBLE EDIT: And I am not complaining about anyone in this thread; it's awesome we can talk about this stuff and I appreciate it deeply.

    -----

    HOWEVER, not to dilute what I have learned from this thread. It's been informative and I am happy to take away some increased understanding and strategies.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #152
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    P.S. I know the above probably sounds like "emo, emo emo, emo!!!"

    It's just a little rant, nothing personal towards anyone and I am done now.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #153
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Random

    Last Spring, a co-worker's beloved wife and mother of his children was hit by a truck and died of her injuries a couple of days after. Since then, some days he doesn't speak. Some days he goes in his office and shuts the door, comes out after a couple of hours and leaves for the day. He screwed up some stuff with his money in minor way (paid one account twice, didn't pay the other one at all so that card was shut off). He can be standing right in front of something that's marked for him, and doesn't notice it. He seems perfectly solid one day and the next he's just not there.

    Never at any point did I think of asking him what was the matter. I know what's the matter. His wife got hit by a truck and died.

    Maybe twice, when he has happened to be physically close to me and there's nobody else around (like in the pantry getting coffee, or by the mail drop), I have very quietly asked "You all right?" Mostly he avoids eye contact, nods briefly, proceeds.
    One time he volunteer a little bit about specifically what was on his mind at that time, which was wondering if he would ever feel normal again, that he kept waiting to be how he used to be and the longer it takes, the more he wonders if it will never happen.

    It never ever occurred to me that this is against me or that he doesn't like me anymore, or that the reason is anything other than what he already told me.

    So if somebody tells me they're going through a divorce, and their performance is somewhat erratic, I don't feel a need to ask them, even a month later, what's the matter.

    That's all I'm saying.

    There's something about perception of time and space here, I don't know how to put my finger on it, but it's like Fi can't anchor itself to any reality, or like they expect the framework to have unexpectedly changed all of a sudden. I have an INFP friend (surprise, surprise, Peacebaby!) whose connection with me is about color, and she says things like "I just can't get my head around so-and-so's palette." Ok, it's not something you have to make up in your head. Look at the pictures.

    What is this part of it, because that seems like the problem, to me. *edit to explain further, because the not explaining further seems to be a problem* -- I feel like INFPs make work for themselves when there isn't any. The reason the INFJ told you that one personal thing and did not go any further into it is because she expected that you would remember and understand -- that's the reference point she gave you, that she is a person going through a divorce. So I don't understand why your mind goes all over the place all the time. If she hadn't given you the reference point, I could understand it. But it's like, to me, with all respect, you make work for yourself and then blame the other person. "I try so hard, I bend, I understand, I empathize, you don't appreciate me, you make me work harder, why do I have to work so hard?" You don't!

  4. #154
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What is this part of it, because that seems like the problem, to me. *edit to explain further, because the not explaining further seems to be a problem* -- I feel like INFPs make work for themselves when there isn't any. The reason the INFJ told you that one personal thing and did not go any further into it is because she expected that you would remember and understand -- that's the reference point she gave you, that she is a person going through a divorce. So I don't understand why your mind goes all over the place all the time. If she hadn't given you the reference point, I could understand it. But it's like, to me, with all respect, you make work for yourself and then blame the other person. "I try so hard, I bend, I understand, I empathize, you don't appreciate me, you make me work harder, why do I have to work so hard?" You don't!
    @bold: I guess I wouldn't have to for you, if I happened to realize the most pressing issue in your life that defined your every waking moment, and if there was only one over-arching issue at the time. Your example above is so extreme as to be insulting, really. Of course that man's heartbreak will define his life moving forward for many years, if not in some ways for a lifetime. Do you think my example above is even comparable to this?

    What if I told you that SHE was the one who initiated the divorce, that she was the one who left her husband? He was faithful by all accounts, including her own. But she left him because they had "drifted apart" and even though she poured her heart and soul into him, he wasn't the ONE. From what I understand, much of the stress revolved around how her teenagers took things. When I look at her FB page and see the pics of her with her latest beau, I see in her eyes her hope that this one is the "ONE" - the one who won't disappoint, the one who'll do everything right. Does that change how you feel about her? Or if I tell you that this is her third divorce? I could go on, but it doesn't change how I feel about her, but it might change how you do. Although the time was filled with much stress, she wasn't a ... victim in all this.

    Based on what you are sharing, I doubt you and I will ever come to an understanding (at least online) because it seems you will not be able to see things from my side of the fence. I feel like you change all the shades of grey to black and white. It makes me a little sad, just because I do find INFJ's interesting people, and I like to be friends and strive for understanding. I don't meet a lot of you IRL. We are similar but so different and it's such a cool blend that I find attractive. And I like your snappy style. Still though, I very much appreciate you getting in here and us trying to grok this out as far as we can.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #155
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Divorce is very stressful, whether or not you initiate it and for whatever reasons it occurs, even if you're the "bad" person -- you're dealing with separation and the pain it causes your family and their family, and yeah, I would think that was an overriding concern for at least a year. I would consider it the factor to keep first in mind. Even after she's married to her new One, I'd give her about a year after that, too.

    Yes, I think it's a comparable example. It's not quite as extreme, but it's comparable, to me. Divorce/death -- right up there among the major stressors of life. I would not expect much in terms of performance for quite a while.

    It's not that I want things in black and white -- it's just a "forest for the trees" thing.

  6. #156
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Per usual, I haven’t caught up- but I’m posting these thoughts now with the disclaimer that it might be touched on with posts I haven’t read yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

    So - even though, to me, I didn't offer a concrete WHY, I was asking a question - the INFJ hears my question somehow as the whole package, the whole deal. I have to get every part right or I am wrong. Or I am making some big-ass judgement on her!
    PB, you’ve mentioned before- noticing that it seems easy to lose an INFJ’s ‘trust’ and get written off, and that it seems permanent. And I think something fid wrote touches on that:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    As someone said earlier, it does really help to have a chance to talk things out. However, it is important to me that the person I am talking to will not create more emotional white noise for me, by placing too much emphasis on my emotional state (which is transient and not an integral part of my identity), and it helps if they understand that my identity is very much bound up in my ideas/how I do my work etc. I think that's why I would have found PB's approach embarrassing - I would already be feeling a little unsure of myself, and then would feel that not only did others notice, but they also agreed that I wasn't doing well in one of the areas that largely defines what I think of myself!
    I think, underlying it all, we all tend to have a very hard time making sense of our thoughts/feelings/the general way we experience the world. We instinctively gravitate towards people who help our experience of the world make more sense- and we instinctively gravitate away from anyone or anything that creates even more white noise. We’ll unconsciously move away from that which doesn’t help us ‘make sense’ of our experience of the world, without even knowing why. I might consider someone completely trustworthy and believe their intentions are entirely good- but if they draw attention to my immediate feelings (the ‘what’), like I said…..it just feels weird, it’s placing a priority on something which I don’t inherently place a priority myself and it doesn’t make sense. It makes me feel like in order to find a ‘same page’ with the person, I’ll need to pay attention to (and give weight to) my immediate feelings too- and there’s something stifling about that to me. We don’t want to establish a ‘what’- it seems superfluous- we want to unravel the ‘why’ which is causing a ‘what’ we don’t want to be feeling. There’s already so much ‘white noise’ in everyday life- I really think that much is a common INFJ thing- so we instinctively gravitate away from anything which causes even more than is already there. I want to liken it to the way a plant grows towards sunlight- it isn’t a conscious decision, it just does it, it just somehow *senses* that’s the direction which gives it the most nourishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    They cannot get to the details of what changes need implementing before they have had time to sort out what they are seeing in front of them and what their options are first. While their emotional state may add information, it does feel that discussing the emotional state itself is not central to making their problem seem more manageable. This is not to say that their emotions are not important or that they don't need attention. However, until the more pressing inner alarms can be addressed and disarmed, they cannot focus well on that aspect of the problem.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".
    I think this actually might be the Ti ‘bubble’. It’s almost odd the way skylights made a post about how Fi feels like a ‘bubble’ when she did because the same thing was occurring to me- that it seems like Fi’ers are more content to have the freedom of living on little islands of their own amongst others, whereas Fe’ers are more comfortable with establishing a ‘same page’ of sorts (the ‘value’ framework starts on the outside- gathering essentials on which to custom make our own, but we need fundamentals from the outside first). This creates a sort of distance. I think Ti does the same thing- we're most comfortable with 'space' to form our own thoughts. INFJs need to go through absolutely everything with a fine tooth Ti comb- everything must ‘make sense’ before we incorporate it into what we can rely on as ‘truth’. I’m content being left to believe in that which ‘makes sense’ and to leave other people to believe whatever ‘makes sense’ to them- so long as some Fe is holding it all together- I don’t need others to believe the same thing. So I’m wondering how much of the above is actually needing something that INFJs just don’t need, but maybe thinking they do and getting frustrated that it’s all being provided from one direction (as if “why must I do the work of fulfilling both our needs?” when actually it’s just the kind of ‘same page’ an INFJ doesn’t particularly need to feel).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #157
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate: Maybe too there's that element of rejection that comes into play for me personally. There are some people that think for whatever reason, I am pretty cool. INFJ's usually do, the few I've met over the years and in fact, a couple of them have put me on a pedestal of sorts. (That could be a type + sx dom thing.) "This is my cool friend PB, she does all this uber-cool stuff and she's so smart and she's funnnnny! I just adore her!" and I can feel myself on this pedestal, even though I don't want to be there and all will go well until ...

    It goes well until I first disagree with their POV or misinterpret something, as above. I can literally hear the file folders filing away each piece of information that to them does not jive, "Oh, maybe we are not as close as I thought ..." and so on. And I can feel the pull-away, the lure of the new and better person who will be the next great friendship trend. So, I get worried about doing wrong things then because I don't want to lose the relationship when, really, I should just not worry about it anymore, how people deal with me is their problem not mine. I really need to leave that mentality behind, trying to keep people happy. If someone wants to keep a scorecard on me, and move on, what can I do about that?

    Me, I just don't leave people behind like that though, I suppose my Si is an anchor of sorts, our history has a tangibility that with my NFP friends, lends this kind of timelessness to our friendships. We can pick up the phone anytime and it's like no time has passed at all.

    This is a real growth area for me at this point in my life.

    And then, the INFJ's are all like, "Everyone is so mean to me! No one gets this!" and I'll come rushing in again, and offer the wrong things again. lol what a mess!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #158
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think this actually might be the Ti ‘bubble’. It’s almost odd the way skylights made a post about how Fi feels like a ‘bubble’ when she did because the same thing was occurring to me- that it seems like Fi’ers are more content to have the freedom of living on little islands of their own amongst others, whereas Fe’ers are more comfortable with establishing a ‘same page’ of sorts (the ‘value’ framework starts on the outside- gathering essentials on which to custom make our own, but we need fundamentals from the outside first). This creates a sort of distance. I think Ti does the same thing- we're most comfortable with 'space' to form our own thoughts. INFJs need to go through absolutely everything with a fine tooth Ti comb- everything must ‘make sense’ before we incorporate it into what we can rely on as ‘truth’. I’m content being left to believe in that which ‘makes sense’ and to leave other people to believe whatever ‘makes sense’ to them- so long as some Fe is holding it all together- I don’t need others to believe the same thing. So I’m wondering how much of the above is actually needing something that INFJs just don’t need, but maybe thinking they do and getting frustrated that it’s all being provided from one direction (as if “why must I do the work of fulfilling both our needs?” when actually it’s just the kind of ‘same page’ an INFJ doesn’t particularly need to feel).
    Well, I think they need it when they respond negatively to a communication style that would be acceptable to another xxFP, and they say they responded negatively because of how it was worded. That's essentially what @PeaceBaby 's story concerning the INFJ was about, isn't it? She has been told her communication style, although delicate, was simply not to the INFJ's liking, & that's why she got shut down.

    Now, I won't say this is an issue for all INFJs....I don't personally have communication issues with my INFJ aunt, but I do witness her weird double standards & impossible to please attitude with others where she expects this Fe delicate, diplomacy where she herself would turn into a steamroller, and yet the diplomacy is not even enough as she still ascribes ulterior motives that don't exist. Her & my ISFJ mom clash more because my mom will word things delicately & my aunt reads into it, but if my mom used that "bully language" my aunt uses, them my aunt would act extremely hurt. I saw this with my INFJ ex on occasion too; everyone must bend to them, but then they question the genuineness of those bending. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm filing this under "Ni paranoia" as well.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #159
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Ok, so ... as regards the topic, "INFJs From The Perspective Of Other Types," I suppose the conclusion is:
    Do. Not. Like.

  10. #160
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    There are some interesting elements involved here (although you may disagree).

    Once difference from my own type that strikes me is how Je tends to mesh into an external network, and then see it as both a tool and something of inherent worth to be defended. This means anything that disturbs that system tends to be seen negatively or at least as a distraction (including one's own emotional state). From the NFP perspective the disruption has already happened and we're trying to help whomever tend to it. From your perspective you are keeping your focus, and we're just emphasizing a distraction.

    The other think that strikes me is how purposeful you guys seem to be. While I'm great at focusing on what's in front of me, I do much worse at longer range tasks. That's especially true if I have multiple long range tasks to manage.

    Your INFJ (and NJ as a group) ability to keep keep track of the longer term campaign amazes me, as does your ability to make patient efforts on multiple fronts to achieve your goals. There's a kind of implacableness to it that's both admirable and intimidating.

    A final thing that I admire in the NJ ability to see momentum across periods of time. I'm very attuned to where things are headed in the present moment, but relatively unaware of how those things track across events and encounters. Your over-time tracking ability becomes a little personally scary when I'm the one being tracked and my inconsistency it projected forward in time (so I am perceived as being "untrustworthy" or "too inconsistent").

    And to respond to @Tiltyred, I don't think INFJs are unlikeable at all. In fact, I think most of the NFPs on this thread have talked about cases where they liked the INFJs and wanted a positive relationship with them... but eventually misstepped in some way they didn't fully understand at the time.

    Personally I've found SFJs to be less flexible in their interpretation when I've misstepped somehow. I've only experienced occasional pockets of NFJ rigidity which are all the more surprising for being so unexpected (kind of like INFP stubbornness contrasts to the normal flexibility and accommodation).

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