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  1. #131
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #132
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Because it was the nfp who made the first move.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  3. #133
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ Outside of PB's situation, in general, the NFP is still the one expected to adjust.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #134
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    How so?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #135
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I gave examples in my previous posts.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #136
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I don't know about manipulation and unhealthy stuff in your previous posts. Just be direct, that's all I say in dealing with Ni doms. Honest and direct. I don't have probs with my infp friends. Anymore.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #137
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I could tell that in some of them, her stress and natural patience was strained. She was tired and sometimes would shut down a meeting IMO a tad prematurely. SO, after a rehash after those situations, I might say privately, "Did that go as well as you hoped?" She would look up at me, puzzled. Oops, I could tell I was off-base - so I would reframe - "You seem a bit tired - I wondered if the meeting dragged you down or went the direction you planned?" That would be met with more puzzlement, and a flash of irritation. I could see in her eyes that our click was starting to be less "clicky" ... I knew she expected me to just "get it" but with her personal issues too, I am not going to presume to just KNOW. It turns out that sometimes at moments like that she WAS carrying personal weight from the stress of her marital breakdown, and I totally get why that would sometimes affect her demeanor in other venues.

    BUT - and here's the big but: But my question was an opening, an opportunity - it wasn't meant to imply I knew exactly WHY she was stressed or unhappy or make any kind of judgement on it. It was an offering, from me, an opening to say what was really the issue. And if I would "guess" right and say, "You are stressed, something going with your ex?" SHE WOULD BE MORTIFIED! ("OMG you can tell??!!??") And if I would comment only on the emotional state, it was just a brush-off for reply, "Yes, I'm just a little tired". Well, that really helps.

    I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

    So - even though, to me, I didn't offer a concrete WHY, I was asking a question - the INFJ hears my question somehow as the whole package, the whole deal. I have to get every part right or I am wrong. Or I am making some big-ass judgement on her!

    Does that help sort this stuff out at all?
    You know, there’s a good chance she might have thought you were reading too much into her expression/behavior. We tend not to be *present*. I’ll notice my work and the job I’m doing (to the best of my ability)- but if my mind is loaded down with stressors, the last thing I notice is how I’m feeling. Part is this is probably e5, but it seems to me like the INFJs I know are also like this. Like many of us have said, we don’t put too much weight on how we are feeling in any given moment (especially- if not exclusively- the negative feelings), and having someone else give it much weight feels.....kinda weird. Having someone point out how we feel is almost distracting because then we also have to worry if THAT is going to be a problem, if the person is going to have a problem with something about us that we don’t even normally pay attention to. Again, maybe isn't as universal to INFJ as I think, it's possible my INFJ friends are like this because they're similarities beyond simply being INFJ. (I even have one who will get really, really angry if someone points out how she's feeling- she'll deny it wholeheartedly and believe every word she says on the matter. We can be that oblivious.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Is it clear to you that I used the question as an opener, to talk about her, not about the meeting?

    I’m with Eilonway, if it were me those questions would have confused me (especially if I’m stressed). My best guess (as I initially read your post) is that she was irritated because she didn’t want to have to stop and think about if the meeting literally went the way she wanted it to or to quickly figure out ‘the right answer’ (by which, I mean figuring out an innocuous answer to put the other person’s mind at ease). It’s kind of like thinking you just finished running a 5 mile stretch (iow: if she was stressed, she was probably glad to be out of the meeting because putting up a ‘front’ can be exhausting) and being told the finish line just moved forward about 20 yards. Plus what AGA and others have said, there’s *some* judgment laced in with it, like it’s a problem that she’s stressed because it’s affecting work performance. But honestly- this is probably just me- I probably wouldn’t have gotten angry so much as felt even worse that it was affecting my job performance so much that someone said something to me.

    I agree with others that a flat out “How are you doing?” would probably be best. I’m even a little puzzled about how that could seem less direct to you than your questions. Maybe that has something to do with your personal dynamic with her. I know there are some people I know with whom that question would sound very generic and misplaced.





    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's like you are asking me if a dress makes you look pretty. I have a lot of options in how I choose to answer, see? It would depend on SO MANY variables... When an OP says, I want your perspective, it's assumed you want truth and generally it's given by an Fi person in an unvarnished way. We interpret this as asking for the first impression, the first thoughts, the "what do you really think" way. That's not to imply we totally think what we express of every INFJ, or don't understand all the myriad of factors that might go into the answer on an individual case-by-case basis. We're offering over that impression, and since most people don't really want to know if a dress makes them look ugly or frumpy, it's hard to say honestly what the answer is.

    When I offer you candor, I need you to realize I put myself OUT THERE to do so, I risk raising someone's hackles, and to me personally that's pretty stressful and risky-feeling. There are people who like me less than they would simply for this fact alone on the forum.
    First: I want to point out, ‘we’ didn’t ask the question- one of us asked the question. If and when I ask someone the ol’ “do these pants make my butt look big?” question, I usually do the mental preparation of hearing anything (because I’d damn well prefer to hear the truth- and people don’t continue to offer truth if I react badly). So there’s that- it’s almost like overhearing a samesy ask someone and overhearing the answer (and knowing it applies somewhat to me). I’m going to admit, I totally did the same thing, made a big list of responses to comments. Then I read your post and was like “uh-oh.” So I didn’t post it (actually feeling relieved I saw your comment first). Having read the op- I did realize someone posed the question, it’s not like you guys just showed up and starting saying “Here’s my opinion of INFJs”…..but I hadn’t worked that part through before feeling the need to comment (lol?).

    The dress analogy was good, and I totally get your point. Having someone ask an opinion- then get upset at the answer- can be sorta like setting off a stadium blow-horn inches from your face. I responded to Starry’s comment more thoroughly in my blog because I didn’t want to derail this thread.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #138
    Anew Leaf
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    Maybe I am missing the context here... but it seems to me that you guys want us to be mind readers or something.

    If I ask you if something is wrong it's because I am picking up on a vibe that something is amiss, but I respect the wishes of the other person if they think that:

    A- I am the wrong person to confide in.
    B- This is the wrong time to confide.
    C- This isn't something I want to make into a Big Deal.

    Thinking someone is being inauthentic because they don't leap forward with "Aha! I know what's wrong here!" is insulting.

    Relationships should be about meeting people halfway. If an NFP asks "hey something up?" they are going outside of their box a little and checking in with you.

    I am actually 80% confused by some of the responses here too. I work with two INFJs that I am very close to, and I never encounter this kind of stuff with them. I ask them what's going on in their lives or if they are having a bad day and they tell me what is going on. I usually hear "Aw, thanks for noticing... I am feeling kind of bummed... Not sure what it is exactly that is bugging me but here is what is going on in my life *Plops ideas down*" Neither one has ever come back with a "You don't know why I am upset?!" They just seem to appreciate that I am willing to talk about stuff.

    On the flipside of things, here is how the "you should just know it's X" comes off when it is done to non-INFJs:

    INFJ: You seem upset. It must be because of X and Y, huh?
    Me: (in head - X no, but Y yes, and also Z, what the heck... why am I being boxed in like this? Why is this person assuming why I am upset? Maybe I have my period! Maybe some jerky mcjerkface just cut me off on the highway! Maybe I don't like you today!) Uh... not exactly... More like Y and some Z.
    INFJ: No... I really think it's X and Y... I can just tell.

    ^^^ Had an INFJ friend I eventually had to drop because every conversation was like that. She would "decide" what I was upset about and would tunnel vision on that and refused to let go. I couldn't deal.

  9. #139
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This summarizes what INFJs don't get about NFPs. Or perhaps it might be more fair to say, "don't believe about NFPs?"
    @bold: indeed.

    PB, imagine someone reading every possible inane insult behind everything you say, especially if you are approaching personal matters.
    *sigh*

    Tilty, imagine someone meaning the very best, but completely unable to avoid putting one's foot in one's mouth.
    Reduced to clown status ...

    PB, my best advice as INFP/INFJ interlocutor (translating with common Ni with INFJ and Fi with INFP), is to be "emotionally blunt" rather than "factually blunt". Fi/Te tends toward the latter. But every Te-ish statement becomes infused with emotional meaning. So instead of asking why the meeting didn't go well, just ask, "Hey, are you all right? I'm concerned about you. Is there anything I can do to help?" (Tilty, feel free to correct/adjust my suggestion.) Notice the lack of "factual" input, just emotional concern.
    Appreciate the interlocution.

    Just accept that some people don't pick up on emotional cues as quickly and efficiently as you do ...
    I beg to differ, however. I picked up on pretty much every emotional cue in the room, and there could have been a half-dozen reasons why that meeting went the way it did. I don't want to make any assumptions why, so therefore I don't. So why does that mean I am the one left holding the emo-bag labelled "dolt"?

    (Oh wait, it's because ... Fe and Te always think they are ... right!)

    NFJs tend to convey an emotional meaning that is intended to be helpful/supportive/nudging/concerned, but is rarely directly so. Fe tends to express things as an emotional meaning/purpose.
    ENFJ's though ... they'll tackle it with you, not freeze you out. What accounts for the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Isn't the above your stating what the statements were behind your questions??
    They were possible variations, but by no means all of the ways the meeting could have been interpreted, nor did they represent my personal opinion. Just an assemblage of the opinions kind of mixing up in the room by the end. In this situation, I kind of look at each person and get a different vibe / feeling / opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Lol! I would have felt PB's statements as offensively as the others did, putting myself in the aforementioned INFJ's position. However from what I know, PB would not be intending to make anyone feel that way. It's just a difference in what each type finds supportive/offensive. I would find it deeply embarrassing to have someone respond as PB did, and yet it is hard for me then to know how to appropriately comfort an INFP, because to me it just feels wrong (while my way feels uncomfortable to them).
    @bold: it's the reason I keep being drawn back to these conversations ... I feel like I am hopefully building enough credibility to be taken at face value.

    I think umlauu summarized the differences quite nicely. INFJs honestly don't think they are reading offensive meaning into something. To them, it is literally a statement. That's why PB saw two INFJs immediately say something along the lines of "I honestly don't see how you could see it any other way". I would read the "But I honestly DIDN'T know" response as disengenuous had it not been for multiple other Fe/Fi threads where I have seen the same kinds of exchanges. I would agree with umlauu in how to forumulate a response to us vs a Fi user.
    I think you don't think it could be seen any other way because the Fe filter enables you to possess a perspective of correctness. Just like Te. Just like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    It took me a long time to come to this realization.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I feel like I'm aware there's a language I don't fully understand, but that's a far cry from being fluent.
    Yes, and I feel so close to cracking it, but I can't. It's sometimes as close as my finger-tips, then something will happen as above and I'm scratching my head. So, practice hardly makes perfect in this instance!

    Close though, sometimes close.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".
    I do ask myself the same questions ... but being married to a Te dom, I just find the comparison to Fe so very analogous. My husband will say, "Of course I think I'm right! If you didn't agree, why didn't you say so!" But it's so much easier for him to accept my POV that I can't understand why it's SO MUCH HARDER with Fe! lol, I do know why, but ... well, it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ... in general, the NFP is still the one expected to adjust.
    It's true, that. Don't have an answer. I'm so bendy already, it's not an issue every day thankfully.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #140
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, when is the time? How is this determined by an outside observer who wants to be of assistance?
    Once again, I can't speak for all INFJs. But when it comes to me, it's all about eye contact. If you noticed that I'm trying hard to avoid *any* eye contact during such stage, that's a clear sign that I am still sorting things out in my mind alone. I tend to give obvious signals by avoiding eye contact (and facial expressions, as we normally can't hide it well) in order to avoid being confronted by others when we needed the moment to ourselves.

    Though if I started to initiate a "non-work" related conversation with you (things like what's your plan for the weekend/what do you think about this movie), then that's a clear sign that we've recuperated and perhaps, are ready to talk about what's bordering us. Usually we'll start with small talk and "we" will find a way to change the topic and addressing to you what's really bordering us, in private of course.

    Then again, that's just me and I'm not sure if other INFJs do things similar as I do.

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