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  1. #111
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    >On the other hand being a Fe secondary, you dont want to carry that out, cause you are afraid of your image or you simply dont want people to think you are nuts.

    the "image" of secondary "Fe" is one of being humble and adaptive.
    being a secondary function its not very inclined to be proactive in establishing common views.
    being Ni-dom it couldn't do so, because it is already too far out and establishing common views (in every day live, from person to person) works by implying little readjustments step by step.
    so it only scans, it's ends up being a tool of avoidant social phobic adaption.
    given that image [of being adaptive and harmless], i might agree that there is fear of loosing it.

    the image isn't "i am not nuts" though, because being Ni-dom you are nuts anyway, as far as anyone else's definition of "nuts" is concerned.
    nothing to loose, nothing to be afraid of.

    according to Fe it is allowed to be nuts, as long as you don't act out.
    in fact it would be "insensitive" to judge insanity simply for it's being in the world. it can't just dissolve after all.
    but it would possibly be equally insensitive, to not (mis-)categorize Ni as insanity, given what it can do to the sense of confidence and security which common egoic live rests upon.
    it's likely that one says: "excuse my silly views, i am just a dreamer" (I am insane, but don't be afraid, i won't act out)

    with Fe you immediately see how your ways/views/goals invalidate common ways (common perceptions, believes, sensibilities), how they implicate a re-evaluation of common live.

    you are not only afraid of the conflict that is implied by this invalidation of the other person's ways and views and thus values, but sincerely desire not to confront the other, to not shake his world and confidence up. it would be rude. that's how you see it to the degree you are identified with Fe. for the Pi-dominant, the identification with Fe is often switched on and off, depending on the situation.

    all of this is about life from person to person. in the political arena (like a message board) Ni goes rampant, and Fe doesn't censor all that much. a forum is world of ideas, after all, more than it's a community of tightly getting along. (that is something i frequently change my mind about)

    well, this is how my Fe is programmed. function and conditioning/content are somewhat different.

  2. #112
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, I can see how that'd be frustrating. But the prime question for any Ni-dom is "why", not "what". So when you express your opinion in these regards, and get the "why" wrong, that's the same as getting everything wrong, from the Ni-dom perspective.
    Thanks for that ...

    ...Thus I suspect INFJs might be hearing/intuiting an xNFP "why" that isn't really there.
    That is what I wonder about too.

    Here's an IRL example. I know a super-cool INFJ female - I worked with her a few years ago now, and we got each other's NF "click" right away. I could tell she liked me, thought I was uber-cool, technically a wizardress and had people skillz to boot. As part of my job, I worked as an additional resource on a couple of her projects, solidifying my status with her, then as time evolved, I came to work directly on an initiative in her department. That was the point where we were attending a lot more of the same meetings. She ran some, and I ran some too as tech resource/POV, and after meetings, we would do a rehash of what we heard. Now, simultaneous to this point in time, I knew she was going through a divorce. Since we were work buds, but not personal buds, I didn't pry into her personal life. I would inquire as to what was polite to ask in the circumstance, naturally, but we had no convos that went into depth on the topic. Now that you know that fact too, dear audience, back to the narrative - so we would rehash these meetings after the fact. I could tell that in some of them, her stress and natural patience was strained. She was tired and sometimes would shut down a meeting IMO a tad prematurely. SO, after a rehash after those situations, I might say privately, "Did that go as well as you hoped?" She would look up at me, puzzled. Oops, I could tell I was off-base - so I would reframe - "You seem a bit tired - I wondered if the meeting dragged you down or went the direction you planned?" That would be met with more puzzlement, and a flash of irritation. I could see in her eyes that our click was starting to be less "clicky" ... I knew she expected me to just "get it" but with her personal issues too, I am not going to presume to just KNOW. It turns out that sometimes at moments like that she WAS carrying personal weight from the stress of her marital breakdown, and I totally get why that would sometimes affect her demeanor in other venues.

    BUT - and here's the big but: But my question was an opening, an opportunity - it wasn't meant to imply I knew exactly WHY she was stressed or unhappy or make any kind of judgement on it. It was an offering, from me, an opening to say what was really the issue. And if I would "guess" right and say, "You are stressed, something going with your ex?" SHE WOULD BE MORTIFIED! ("OMG you can tell??!!??") And if I would comment only on the emotional state, it was just a brush-off for reply, "Yes, I'm just a little tired". Well, that really helps.

    I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

    So - even though, to me, I didn't offer a concrete WHY, I was asking a question - the INFJ hears my question somehow as the whole package, the whole deal. I have to get every part right or I am wrong. Or I am making some big-ass judgement on her!

    Does that help sort this stuff out at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    That makes a lot of sense. I think I tend to leave out the "why" of things... it doesn't really have to matter that someone is upset (at least initially), just the fact that they ARE upset is what matters. Once that immediacy is dealt with then we can refocus on the why of things. (So long as it isn't intruding upon their private territories.)
    Yes, the why doesn't matter as much to me either ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    I have noticed that INFJs can get angry when they don't see the "why". I've also noticed that when they get caught in a Ni/Ti loop they start to act very oddly. They start to get very grumpy with everyone. People then start to ask what's wrong, but I think the INFJ gets annoyed/guilty that they feel as if those asking if they are okay expect them to act as if they were okay. I think then there is a mild panic because there's a lot of unspoken feeling going on with a lot of unspoken analysis. Then they feel pressured to make a decision.
    Yes, I feel this too, they don't even have the why's all sorted out and you're jumping in with an answer that perhaps they're not ready for? They're grumpy but the dust hasn't settled up enough yet for sweeping? And then to know that they are that transparent when they are trying so very hard to retain control and be nice ... it's unnerving? Like being nice is THE imperative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    First and foremost, I bet most INFJs know the terrible consequence once we unleash our anger on someone as we take it very personally of our own misbehaviors. It's usually clouded with so much dark energy that we just wish it'll disappear, I swear. Though as Fe user, we are incapable of hiding our deepest frustrations as Fi users, who are brilliant of masking their inner-feelings, especially the negative aspects. And believe me that when I say we really tried to mask our grumpiness, it would seem like an impossible mission for us.
    Thanks for that ...

    Then when we're being approached by others to check on us, we tend to feel even more sensitive about it as we are still fighting within our inner-self to calm down, or at least to drive those negative emotions away. So it really depends on the timing I would say. If we are being confronted at a bad time, then we tend to just explode. Thus, the best thing to do is to leave us alone. Though I know Fi users are capable of leaving at site to avoid any confrontation from others when they're at grumpy stage. INFJ tend to put themselves in a test of trying to gain a self-control as storming out the room will just make others to speculate even more (that could be just me, not necessary to imply to all INFJs).
    So, when is the time? How is this determined by an outside observer who wants to be of assistance?

    We tend to need A LENGTHY amount of time to sort conflicts out, and for me, that will never happen within the same day as it usually take days or weeks for us to sort it out on our own. Once we're able to find more time to do that, we'll be able to think from other perspectives more, or just randomly trying to make excuses for the offenders so that we can settle for an inner-peace of mind. I think the biggest issue here is that when INFJ themselves is facing such dilemma, they tend to prefer to sort it out on their own; whereas when INFJ felt they were "involved" in other's conflicts, they eagerly seek out for confirmation from others in order to settle it down quickly. Perhaps this is something that most people felt INFJ can be selfish in some ways as we really do need a lot of personal space and time to deal with our complexity of our own emotions.
    There's no way I could process for that long - I would have to mediate something much faster to re-attain peace of mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    I think INFPs and INFJ both use "the list". When someone crosses us, that person is added to "the list".
    Hmm, I don't have a list per se, I don't think. Is that a 9 thing perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    One last edit: I've learned that some types do what I do in my head aloud. That when they're speaking, it doesn't mean I'm supposed to listen and take notes (my tendency). I don't talk the process, I think it -- some people talk it. That's helped me, hope it helps someone else.
    To the whole post - I really liked this, thanks for sharing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    In this sense INFPs are looking at aren't considering the "whys" as much, because that is too specific to the situation (and see attempting to ascertain them to be pure speculation) but the specifics are exactly what the INFJs are focused on. They seem to see the "whys" as key to uncover the "whats".
    Or the "whys" must either justify or deny the "whats", that's why they must be known?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Maybe this is just, once again, Fe trying to get to the meat of resolution. What would have been the ‘appropriate’ response? …not responding at all maybe? I’m really asking.

    I read a lot of these answers thinking ‘looks like a misunderstanding’ over and over again. I don’t know, I guess I have a hard time believing any type wouldn’t want to jump in and explain their quirks. Like if I said, “some INFPs seem to have a bubble of DON’T TOUCH MY RIGHTNESS around them, like it's a magic fluffy bunny and you'll kill it if you say what's really on your mind” .....or something that made you feel misunderstood, some INFPs wouldn’t jump in?

    edit: it's worth mentioning- the 'fluffy bunny' example was intentionally phrased in such a way that I thought might incite feelings of being misunderstood. It's short-sighted on purpose. I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm just wondering what the reaction *would* be. As fid mentions below- how does the goal look different?

    edit #2: I just read skylights use "bubble" to describe Fi experience in another thread- I seriously did not use it above to reference her or her post. I hadn't seen her post until just now.
    It's like you are asking me if a dress makes you look pretty. I have a lot of options in how I choose to answer, see? It would depend on SO MANY variables... When an OP says, I want your perspective, it's assumed you want truth and generally it's given by an Fi person in an unvarnished way. We interpret this as asking for the first impression, the first thoughts, the "what do you really think" way. That's not to imply we totally think what we express of every INFJ, or don't understand all the myriad of factors that might go into the answer on an individual case-by-case basis. We're offering over that impression, and since most people don't really want to know if a dress makes them look ugly or frumpy, it's hard to say honestly what the answer is.

    When I offer you candor, I need you to realize I put myself OUT THERE to do so, I risk raising someone's hackles, and to me personally that's pretty stressful and risky-feeling. There are people who like me less than they would simply for this fact alone on the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I will probably say this clumsily, but sometimes it seems to me that Fi users express feelings for a completely different reason and with less goal course of action in mind. Therefore it is a little invalidating to them if someone says that their observation is incorrect or tries to tweak it with added information. I don't know if that's right or not, but seems that way to me.
    Yes, kind of - you ask me if the dress makes you look pretty. In reality, let's pretend the dress is hideous. If I say it makes you look good, I am lying, but if you love the dress and I say it's not very flattering, you'll be mad at me for disagreeing. Kind of a rock and a hard place to be. So, if you ask for MY opinion, perhaps the opinion of most Fi people, we assume you want OUR perspective in OUR language, however as awkward as that might be to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I don't know either...but I am wondering if the 'hang-up' is over the word 'perspective'. I've known many Fi individuals that insist an individual perspective...by its very nature...cannot be incorrect (don't even know if I'm explaining this properly). That when asked for your perspective on something...it is not the time to say...'no, no you are wrong...here's what you are missing'...but rather say...'is this perspective common? And if so...what is the mechanism?' Again...I have no idea what I'm saying...but this does seem familiar to me.
    Yes, that's the key I think. If I asked for someone else for their perspective, I would be searching for patterns, things I can extrapolate and draw from moving forward. For example, I can think of probably a dozen times here on the forum reading that people feel like they walk on eggshells around INFJ's .. that's something that would instantly alert to my mind and bear deeper examination. I am looking for these obvious ones, and the quieter ones that barely whisper ...

    There's that "fluffy bunny" stereotype that INFP's get, and it annoys me too, but I have to accept it and dig into it to see what kernel it might offer me to grow and move forward, how it fits into an evolvement of being INFP and how it sometimes signals someone's not really an INFP at all. So ... what can I do to change your opinion? I can offer my perspective too. You can add it to all the other ones, and see that 50% of INFP's around here wouldn't be caught dead "fluffy bunnying" - so what does that mean etc etc.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #113
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Hi. Your post is so long, I'm not going to quote. But if I was that infj you asked those two questions to, I would have been ticked. In fact, I sorta felt myself reacting for her. lol. You see, your 'questions' were laced with judgment---about her performance not being up to par. It would have been far better, imo, for you to have found a way to be more direct yet kind and discreet, say something like, "How are things with you?" leaving it more open-ended, and not so judgmental. (I know you are an awesome person, just sayin from my infj pov).
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  4. #114
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Hi. Your post is so long, I'm not going to quote. But if I was that infj you asked those two questions to, I would have been ticked. In fact, I sorta felt myself reacting for her. lol. You see, your 'questions' were laced with judgment---about her performance not being up to par. It would have been far better, imo, for you to have found a way to be more direct yet kind and discreet, say something like, "How are things with you?" leaving it more open-ended, and not so judgmental. (I know you are an awesome person, just sayin from my infj pov).
    That's why I am offering this example - in reality, I made no judgements AT ALL. On her worst day, she's better than most on their best day. These are small things that friends notice about each other. I ask because I care about her internal state, not because I am judging her performance.

    So, let the comments continue to roll in. AGA, thanks so much for your reply.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #115
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    She was tired and sometimes would shut down a meeting IMO a tad prematurely. SO, after a rehash after those situations, I might say privately, "Did that go as well as you hoped?" She would look up at me, puzzled. Oops, I could tell I was off-base - so I would reframe - "You seem a bit tired - I wondered if the meeting dragged you down or went the direction you planned?"
    That is a judgment. You judged the meeting was cut short, you then implied it didn't go very well, then told her she seemed tired (and was therefore to blame). I do not understand why that is not obviously annoying, esp to someone already emotionally stressed out.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #116
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    That is a judgment. You judged the meeting was cut short, you then implied it didn't go very well, then told her she seemed tired (and was therefore to blame). I do not understand why that is not obviously annoying, esp to someone already emotionally stressed out.
    Is it clear to you that I used the question as an opener, to talk about her, not about the meeting?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #117
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    It would have been far better, imo, for you to have found a way to be more direct yet kind and discreet, say something like, "How are things with you?" leaving it more open-ended, and not so judgmental. (I know you are an awesome person, just sayin from my infj pov).
    Yep. I was thinking the same.

  8. #118
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Is it clear to you that I used the question as an opener, to talk about her, not about the meeting?

    No. I only heard judgment. I am a perfectionist about work though.


    But I know you and how caring you are, and I'm sure she does too. Best to be direct with an Ni dom. We see you coming a mile away.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #119
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    No. I only heard judgment. I am a perfectionist about work though.
    But I know you and how caring you are, and I'm sure she does too. Best to be direct with an Ni dom. We see you coming a mile away.
    But "How are things with you?" isn't direct, not at all.

    I can't offer over Te honesty or I'll be shot, "Well, that meeting sucked, why did you cut it short" or Fe honesty, "No offense, but it felt like those people were annoyed wondering why you left the group before listening to them" -- haha, where does that leave me?

    Maybe there's no right question at all. Just walk away slowly ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #120
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But "How are things with you?" isn't direct, not at all. I can't offer over Te honesty or I'll be shot, "Well, that meeting sucked, why did you cut it short" or Fe honesty, "It felt like those people were annoyed wondering why you left the group before listening to them" -- haha, where does that leave me?

    Maybe there's no right question at all. Just walk away slowly ...
    lol. Maybe back away with one eye still on her.

    It's direct enough. She'll know what you mean, and if she wants to, she'll open up....if she trusts you enough. There is one person who can pry into me and I don't *really* like it but I tolerate it, and it's from another INFJ, who is older than me. I don't recommend it for the majority of people though.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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