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  1. #1
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Default Fe - EVERYTHING IS RUDE

    I apologize in advance if I come off as a judgmental or if I seem like I am using stereotypes... that being said....


    I CANNOT TAKE FE!!!!!!!!! (in ESFJs)

    I can't take it anymore. I can't win. Ever. I can't defend anyone else's point of views if it is different than the Fe-user's POV. This is ridiculous and it is rude on their part to pass judgement on EVERYONE ELSE and their opinions.

    One person does an act of kindness
    "WELL, IF THEY WANTED TO DO A NICE GUESTURE, THEY SHOULD HAVE DOES TTTHHHISSSS INSTEAD OF THAT. THAT IS JUST CHEAP AND DEMEANING"

    Honestly, what is going on in their heads? Do they think that they are better and more classy than everyone? Do they have this competitiveness going on and they just want to beat out everyone? What is it??

    I'm planning an wedding (I'm an ENFP marrying and ISTJ) and my future in laws are ISxJ and ISTJ.

    The ISTJs are very conservative and if they do anything that reflects their Christian-conservative outlook, my ESFJ mother calls it rude/unclassy/cheap.

    Example: They don't drink alcohol so they'd prefer there to be a cash bar to help monitor that amount of drunk people / why would they pay hundreds of dollars for an open bar that a majority of their guests won't touch?

    It makes sense to me, but explaining a different outlook to my ESFJ mom is ridiculous. How can I make her understand that not everyone is like her. Not everyone drinks or celebrates the same way she does.

    ** And there is more frustrations when I try and voice my opinion about anything that has to do with my ideas for my own wedding... she doesn't agree with anything I say, anything that is different than what she's seen 30 years ago is viewed as TACKY.

    I could go on and on. I am sorry if I am being rude but I am at my wit's end with her Fe. I need to understand it. Someone help me find a way to talk to her and get her to see someone else's point of view

  2. #2
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Some people are settled in their ways. When i give an alternative point of view to my ESFJ mother, i can usually see the cogs going in her head while she weighs it up. sometimes it works, sometimes not.

    I personally don't get worked up over it .. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it differs from mine.

    With regards to your wedding .. Don't have her so involved or just express your wishes.

    I once told my mother about something that was very annoying to me and i put it in a letter and didn't see her for 3 days .. She came round and apologised and things have been on the up ever since. Obviously i just needed to bring it to her attention.

    Good luck anyway and i hope you have a lovely wedding.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  3. #3
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I could go on and on. I am sorry if I am being rude but I am at my wit's end with her Fe. I need to understand it. Someone help me find a way to talk to her and get her to see someone else's point of view
    Sure.
    Then I'll solve "P=NP?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #4
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Thanks for your response. Sometimes she does come around, whether it's days later or hours later. And she ends up making me feel bad because she'll tell me "Oh I didn't know you felt that way. I feel terrible. I just want the best for you. I am trying my hardest"...but it's like guilt tripping.

    I wish I could have her less involved but since she is paying for it, she deserves a right to be involved. But it's any idea i throw at her, she will either laugh in my face or cry her eyes out because it's distasteful and rude in her eyes. (Like when she thought I was walking down the isle to Here Comes the Bride, I told her I wanted a more contemporary song---she started to cry her eyes out, saying that how could her daughter not walk down the isle to Here Comes the Bride!!!)

    I try not to get worked up, but it's annoying when she starts to voice her opinion to everyone else "Can you believe my daughter's in-laws WONT PAY FOR ALCOHOL?!" she'll announce this to all of her friends and my family and her and my ESFJ grandmother just team up against me and try and make me feel awful. They don't let it go. And not just with the bar stuff, with Everything about the wedding... bllaaahhhh

  5. #5
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Sure.
    Then I'll solve "P=NP?"
    hahahahah
    ugh i hate my life

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I apologize in advance if I come off as a judgmental or if I seem like I am using stereotypes... that being said....


    I CANNOT TAKE FE!!!!!!!!! (in ESFJs)

    I can't take it anymore. I can't win. Ever. I can't defend anyone else's point of views if it is different than the Fe-user's POV. This is ridiculous and it is rude on their part to pass judgement on EVERYONE ELSE and their opinions.

    One person does an act of kindness
    "WELL, IF THEY WANTED TO DO A NICE GUESTURE, THEY SHOULD HAVE DOES TTTHHHISSSS INSTEAD OF THAT. THAT IS JUST CHEAP AND DEMEANING"

    Honestly, what is going on in their heads? Do they think that they are better and more classy than everyone? Do they have this competitiveness going on and they just want to beat out everyone? What is it??

    I'm planning an wedding (I'm an ENFP marrying and ISTJ) and my future in laws are ISxJ and ISTJ.

    The ISTJs are very conservative and if they do anything that reflects their Christian-conservative outlook, my ESFJ mother calls it rude/unclassy/cheap.

    Example: They don't drink alcohol so they'd prefer there to be a cash bar to help monitor that amount of drunk people / why would they pay hundreds of dollars for an open bar that a majority of their guests won't touch?

    It makes sense to me, but explaining a different outlook to my ESFJ mom is ridiculous. How can I make her understand that not everyone is like her. Not everyone drinks or celebrates the same way she does.

    ** And there is more frustrations when I try and voice my opinion about anything that has to do with my ideas for my own wedding... she doesn't agree with anything I say, anything that is different than what she's seen 30 years ago is viewed as TACKY.

    I could go on and on. I am sorry if I am being rude but I am at my wit's end with her Fe. I need to understand it. Someone help me find a way to talk to her and get her to see someone else's point of view
    Just put your foot down gently. Tell her you appreciate her, love her, and that you know she only has the best for you in mind. But it's your special day, not hers.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    This isn't going to help particularly and represents a bit of a derail, so I apologise in advance (that's my Fe...hahaha )

    It's just...it seems like practically everyone has an ESFJ mother. (I sure as hell don't...she's probably an INTJ!). I remember reading one of those threads surveying people's families types and practically every mother was an ESFJ. Is this possible?

    In at least one enneagram book it commented that women with a family and over a certain age tend to test type 2 and this was something to look out for. I thought this seemed a bit condescending/stereotypical, but it pointed out that this was how a lot of women had been socialized. I can't help wondering if there isn't something similar at work with all these ESFJ mothers. Plus, it seems like a convenient box to put an annoying mother in. Like everyone puts their annoying bosses in the convenient ESTJ box.


    EDIT: Mind you, I think Fe comes across differently in INFJs. We're just quite diplomatic, subtle, masterful and ever so slightly manipulative with it.
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  8. #8
    Glycerine
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    YES YOU ARE RUDE!:P I dislike when people pull the "rude" card.... is it not just as rude or ruder to point out my rudeness. How much does it affect your life? If not much, then get that stick out of you butt (in general... not you).

    It helps to to acknowledge the person's POV and gradually introduce the other point of view. Like comment how her point of view could be effective and efficient but also introduce why the other's point can also be effective and efficient. It's a pain in the butt but I find the method useful.

  9. #9
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    A friend of mine who was planning a wedding came across this article & shared it with people, likely to send a message

    http://offbeatbride.com/2008/07/tacky

    I'm not much into weddings, but the "tacky" card seems to get pulled a lot when people plan them, and I find the thinking behind these valuations interesting. As Fi types, such vague devaluations can be aggravating. What is tacky anyway? Who decides? Is there really a common standard? Get your ESFJ to identify what the real worry is, beyond "tacky". By tacky, does she mean cheap, inhospitable, low-class, etc. Then address the specific worry.

    Unfortunately though, sometimes Fe types will consider their values as objective; ie. saying things like "everyone knows X is tacky", as if it's a FACT. You have to show them it is not a fact, using real life examples which counter that view.

    With ESFJs, you have to remind them that everyone does not feel the way they do, and that this is not a threat to how they feel. Try and drum up some examples when people went against the tide & it was a pleasant experience for your ESFJ. ESFJs generally are open to different/new ways as long as they have some "proof" that it will go well. To Si types, the unknown seems uncontrollable and therefore scary & bad, so you have to relate new things to what is known to ease their worries, or provide examples of how this has worked in the past for other people. My grandma is ESFJ, and I've had similar hurdles with her; I have to constantly remind her that everyone does not feel the way she does. Even my ISFJ mom gets frustrated with her & she is an xSFJ also.

    A few Fe points & how to work with them:

    - Feeling attitudes assume a form which is generally approved in the community
    Tell you mom how these wedding plans will generally be preferred by all of the guests & use examples of other people who have done the same or similar with success.

    - All the actions, thoughts, and observations are governed by the effort to establish relationships of feeling with other people
    They want people to regard them positively, so that's why there's an emphasis from your ESFJ on not appearing tacky. She doesn't want it to reflect badly on you because you're her daughter. Approach her from that angle, assuring her that this is not going to give a bad impression to people, that they may even appreciate these decisions.

    - Derives sense of security from the current, customary forms in the external world
    This is especially true of Fe+Si. Your mom may just be uncomfortable with ideas that are new/strange to her because she can't predict how they will turn out. Put these decisions in a light that makes them appear accepted & normal to other people.

    - Feeling attitudes are seen as things of objective value
    This is where you remind her that people feel differently, that there is no universal standard for "tacky". Keep reminding her of context, that the value of something can change in context. In the context of your wedding, these things are not any violation of good taste, but on the contrary, may show sensitivity to people involved.

    - Finds support for the belief that feelings have objective value in the fact that others also possess the same feelings, and that the life of the community is based upon them
    Pull out magazine articles, call up friends, relate personal experiences, etc - basically get other opinions to support yours. There is power in consensus with ESFJs; they can be swayed if the majority is against their opinion because they see feelings as having a basis in external results, so a feeling of theirs which is out of harmony with others may be adapted.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #10
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    FTR, my ENFJ sister also thinks everything is rude, though she's not as Si particular about "everything must be this way" in terms of traditions or personal rituals....she's more like enforcing the idea that everyone must be accepted and get along...more of an ENFJ in that her "help" and "being there for others" is often emotional or psychological, rather than providing extensive, reliable practical care like I've known ESFJs in my life to do.

    But she can still be all like, "there is a right and moral way to do this" and generally it involves things like behaving yourself in a particular manner. My sister is more like the social worker police stereotype. She's also a 9w8 "referee" that actually seems to be more like butting in or nagging other people than genuinely being a referee at times. I love her though she is very giving and loyal to our family, but she tries to "enforce" a certain kind of behavior, and this stems from her own issues where she represses things. Like if she's anxious or depressed she won't show it outwardly and will inwardly be shaking and won't eat, and she could be dying and she won't tell you, but then cries when people don't see how much she's suffering even though she's repressing everything...and even more absurdly, she wants other people to repress like she does. Such an Fe dom, and I can understand the frustration with Fe as an Fi user as much as I love and respect and appreciate my ENFJ sister.

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