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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default The Imaginary Fi land of perfect values

    Hello NFPs and other Fi containing folks!

    Can you describe a few things for me?

    1 how do you handle that the world doesn't meet you internal ideals? What makes thisokay for you and doesn't leave you angstful?

    2 are you okay with others not fOlliwing some of your smaller values?

    3 what causes you to externalize a value offense to another? Not as in venting to a friend but rather confronting the other person when they have crossed a value? What does this externalization look like?

    4what percentage of the time do you externalize values verses hold your sense of discord internally?

    5 do you hold different people tTO different expectations ? Is a sliding scale of forgiveness ?

  2. #2
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Also do you find that you have a great deal of tolerance towards others who do not meet your values , but perhaps not a respect of the choices they make?

    Additionally do you actually ever met your own value standards?

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    I tend to largely confront people about values on-line. This correlates to my goal in my late teens/early twenties that I wanted to "reach people" in writing...I don't want to preach, I don't want to 'convert' anyone IRL, but I do want to make people think about what they're saying and doing, and I saw writing as a means of doing that, beyond it being creative expression. At that time, I didn't really consider the Internet as an option, but with the increased popularity of blogging and foruming, it actually seems that the Internet is the new "Salon" of ye olden days where people meet to discuss ideas. I feel much freer to confront people in writing...and even if it doesn't affect the person I'm confronting, someone else might read it and think about what I said. That is how I deal with the world not meeting up to my Fi ideals and value standards.

    But on most little things I let it go. On things I don't deem important, I try to be as accepting and tolerant as I possibly can be, and IRL I will even politely keep quiet or disengage from ...say....a very conservative Republican...because like I can tell as an individual they are a nice person and they sincerely believe that they are doing what is right, so I don't feel that it is my place to try to convert them, I think it would be rude and mean. That may come as a surprise to people who read my politically geared posts on-line, but it's true.

    On the other hand, me and my old ENFJ libertarian friend used to argue like crazy about values, because he liked to debate and I knew he could take it, and sometimes he pissed me off. But I don't think it really did any good to do so.

    And I've learned from those experiences IRL...like...when it will do good and when it won't. I think of that less in writing. In writing I'm more likely to go off about things like liberal politics, equality, stop stereotyping people, stop using people, stop being greedy bastards, stuff like that.

    I forgive pretty easily for the most part, except for certain individuals which I think it is obvious that I should avoid because they have no good intentions toward me in the slightest, or I find them so morally reprehensible I just can't bear it.

    Don't get me wrong, I can argue IRL too, but usually it's in an environment where people are already doing that (like a college classroom or a group discussion about the issue).

    Like a stereotypical 6, fear drives me a lot. People who have values which honest-to-god SCARE ME are more likely to feel my wrath than people who have values I merely disagree with.

    I used to have a lot more angst about politics. I had to learn to let some of that go and realize that I can only do what I can, that it's silly to stress and have anxiety about it beyond that.

  4. #4
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    1 how do you handle that the world doesn't meet you internal ideals? What makes this okay for you and doesn't leave you angstful?
    It's okay when it doesn't affect me personally & I have no power to change it. You have to choose your battles. There are times when I feel this weight of everything wrong in the world, without thinking of any one thing, and it's overwhelming. I have to disconnect from this awareness and just focus on myself.

    When something affects me personally and I cannot change it, then I get angsty though. I get over the angst by broadening what my ideal means in reality, which opens new options and gives me power again. Sometimes I run into the same brick wall over & over & over until I figure out I can go around it though.

    If I can change something, but I don't for some reason, then I feel disappointed in myself. I usually begin to try and take small steps to change this, steps which won't be visible to others for quite some time.

    2 are you okay with others not fOlliwing some of your smaller values?

    I am okay with being an imperfect, flawed human. I don't have my values so neatly defined & ordered that I consciously can dismiss some. I simply know when something is intolerable or not when I'm faced with it.

    3 what causes you to externalize a value offense to another? Not as in venting to a friend but rather confronting the other person when they have crossed a value? What does this externalization look like?

    I don't always know what causes me to do it. I almost always think it through for awhile first though; I only fly off the handle with my poor family (because I feel they should know the crossed a line, and often they do know, and are just pushing buttons). If I can't solve an issue internally or dismiss it as insignificant, then I realize I need to involve the other person to move past it, to protect my rights, etc. I'm usually very calm when I approach people. I tend to overthink things though, and will have some response ready in anticipation of 1000 different things they might say. My mind becomes one of those "if X, then move to this box" charts. I find myself sometimes over-justifying my stance, on the defensive already, assuming they're going to devalue my perspective.

    4what percentage of the time do you externalize values verses hold your sense of discord internally?

    This is hard to say. I tend to let things slide for awhile and then I begin to assert myself. Maybe 75-25, with 75 being the amount I let it slide. I'm also aware I am sensitive, so I always try & make sure my response is valid. I don't give into every little mood swing.

    5 do you hold different people tTO different expectations ? Is a sliding scale of forgiveness ?

    I usually go easier on other people, inventing excuses for them or noting their good qualities easier than I note my own. The closer I am to someone, and the more I know their potential, the higher my expectations will be though. I'm hardest on my family, for example. My standards for others can also be different based on their individual abilities & needs & circumstances, as I perceive them or as they've communicated them to me. When it comes to very basic standards, I tend to have "universal" ones I hold for all people. This amounts to stuff like not lying or stealing, etc.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #5
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I'd like to be able to answer these questions.. but I need to get in touch with my Fi values. I know there are certain subjects which put me into battle mode, sometimes I only notice because other people get alarmed on how my demeanor changes. But I've never really sat down and cataloged them and paid attention on how certain situations play out. I'll have to think about this, and maybe get back to this thread.

  6. #6
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hello NFPs and other Fi containing folks!

    Can you describe a few things for me?

    1 how do you handle that the world doesn't meet you internal ideals? What makes thisokay for you and doesn't leave you angstful?

    It took me a while, but I got there by realizing that my ideal world isn't complete either. Its about building a bridge between both worlds and swapping ideas back and forth. To give a silly example, all people in my ideal world are for instance the image of perfection, both in character and in appearance. However, I've discovered that it is often the 'flaws', the imperfections that we have as humans that make us unique in reality. It defines us, and give us those enjoyable quirks. In essence, my definition of 'ideal' shifted to include that kind of 'flawed' beauty which in many ways surpasses the image of perfection. And that in turn allowed me to slowly integrate those two worlds with each other. By adjusting my perfect inner world to include reality's beautiful quirks, I also became less rigid in demanding perfection from reality and instead using my inner world as a source of inspiration to work towards. It's an attitude change, really.

    2 are you okay with others not fOlliwing some of your smaller values?
    My main value that takes priority over almost any other is that every person is unique and entitled to be themselves. Since this value tops the smaller ones, people are allowed to do their own thing. On top of that, my values are my own. And in turn, to not be hypocritical, others are allowed to do the same. I only expect to hold myself to them. Others have other perspectives on the world which are equally valid, and have other priorities. Since I assert myself to maintain my priorities, it's only to natural that I allow others to set their own priorities. The *only* value that I impress upon others, to certain point, is 'harm none' as that is both a greater good and self-defense mechanism. And even there, I'll give them leeway(sp?) depending on the amount of harm being inflicted and the response of the party suffering, as this too is part of the learning process in life.

    3 what causes you to externalize a value offense to another? Not as in venting to a friend but rather confronting the other person when they have crossed a value? What does this externalization look like?
    Repeated offense of harming others at a high level, or a self-defense situation. Passionate discussions also make me externalize it as I feel we're freely sharing our thoughts and opinions to learn from one another. I generally only do this when I feel safe in the situation or with the people though. Smaller values only get externalized towards people who see me often and know me intimately (for instance my so, as I have to live with him). The externalization is usually attempted to be communicated through explanations and understanding and with an open mind for the other person's perspective on the matter, unless it's being expressed under extreme pressure, which results in the 'infamous' Te-Bitchslap.

    4what percentage of the time do you externalize values verses hold your sense of discord internally?
    10 vs 90, especially in large groups. The more intimate the connection with someone (something more easily achieved one on one), the more it levels out.

    5 do you hold different people tTO different expectations ? Is a sliding scale of forgiveness ?
    Yes. I expect strangers and acquaintances to not have the knowledge nor the interest needed to keep an eye on my values and their opinions are of little consequence to me. The more your move up closer to my heart, the harder you can hurt me. My way of loving someone is by showing understanding of their person and the person who can return that type of love makes me feel incredibly close to them and safe. However, ironically, with that showing of love through understanding also comes the potential for forgiveness and even foresight of them not being able to live up to the expectations you'd like to have and the acceptance and appreciation of their weaknesses, strengths and who they truly are.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #7
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    "Ideals are like stars; you will not succeed in touching them with your hands, but like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them, you reach your destiny." Carl Schurz

    People say Fi is steadfast and judgmental. I say that is inaccurate and missing the point. "Perfection" is neither the beginning nor the end of Fi.

  8. #8
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled pretty much said it all for me. Although they are quite interesting and thought provoking questions so I will endeavour to add some more points.

    1 how do you handle that the world doesn't meet you internal ideals? What makes thisokay for you and doesn't leave you angstful?

    I've gotten used to the imperfect nature of the world and have accepted to some degree that basically, shit happens. The main thing is I have learnt to let go of what I can't control. Although not religious, I'm a fan of the serenity prayer:

    God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference.


    2 are you okay with others not fOlliwing some of your smaller values?

    Pretty much, yeah. I tend to be more strict on myself, than others. Not everyone is as scrupulous as I am.

    3 what causes you to externalize a value offense to another? Not as in venting to a friend but rather confronting the other person when they have crossed a value? What does this externalization look like?

    I don't know. I think it often it has less to do with nobly fighting for a righteous cause. Mostly I hold it back because, a) there is often little to be gained in confronting people; b) I feel inept at broaching the subject and explaining myself; c) I'm timid about confronting others; d) I think self-control is a better approach (ie. I control my behaviour better than I can others').

    It usually happens when my patience has been tested beyond my limits, my self-control falters and I snap in anger. It's not often I confront people whom I'm not on intimate terms with, in a calm state of mind. I've come to believe more in the importance of my forbearance on my part. The times when I do speak up with a cool-head, it usually is when I'm compelled by an additional value, ie. where my failure to take action would result in others being harmed. But again this is more about my behaviour being in accordance to what is right, than other people's.

    Another more indirect externalisation is that I would avoid and distrust people who exhibit behaviour I strongly disapprove of, often without verbalising or even openly demonstrating that sentiment.

    4 what percentage of the time do you externalize values verses hold your sense of discord internally?

    Hmmm. Do you mean in terms of confrontation? If so with close friends and family, maybe 40% is externalised; with everyone else 10-20% externalised, depending on the circumstances. Its hard to say for sure, though - I do a lot of this on autopilot.

    5 do you hold different people tTO different expectations ? Is a sliding scale of forgiveness?

    To a degree. I realise that a lot of the unpleasant/inappropriate behaviour out there is unconsciously done. Sometimes a flaw in someone's nature can blind them and lead them down the wrong path. But there are limits; "I couldn't help it", or "it was a mistake" doesn't always cut it. People still need to take responsibilities for their behaviour, even if it was unintentional. And sometimes I can empathise with the reasons why someone did wrong but still believe that they deserve the negative consequences.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Also do you find that you have a great deal of tolerance towards others who do not meet your values , but perhaps not a respect of the choices they make?
    With this, unless I find the person's values absolutely frightening or repellent, I try to see from their perspective, like, why do they think this way or believe this? And that can make me a lot more tolerant. I have gone back and forgiven people, or felt bad for my own initial response later if I reasoned out why that person might think or believe the way that they do. I also know I am not perfect, and that's really helped me...like to look at people as flawed, we're all flawed, and that's where my forgiveness stems from, both for myself and others. We're all just too human, and that really helps me be more tolerant or let things go that may have upset me.

    Additionally do you actually ever met your own value standards?
    Yes, but usually not. I am working on this with Taoism now. I am trying to flow like water more and keep things in perspective more. It's just as much for my own sanity as it is for morality and ethics.

  10. #10
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hello NFPs and other Fi containing folks!

    Can you describe a few things for me?
    I hope so.



    1 how do you handle that the world doesn't meet you internal ideals?
    Not usually well.


    What makes thisokay for you and doesn't leave you angstful?

    Most of my life is about work. I realize that I took up crusades at each job. Things were one way, and they should be a different way. I come to realize that this is about me and my perfectionism, and not necessarily about things externally. It is about me "needing" to have a crusade, and some sort of drama against an antagonist or antagonists. This drama is characteristic of my entire life history. It's like a passion play.

    When I understand, then it gets better. I try to understand myself.



    2 are you okay with others not fOlliwing some of your smaller values?
    Yes...if it is small.

    3 what causes you to externalize a value offense to another? Not as in venting to a friend but rather confronting the other person when they have crossed a value? What does this externalization look like?

    Fortunately or unfortunately I'm a supervisor and I have to confront people. Actually I should make a thread about this. Acting of my natural self, I may not say anything, but I'm basically required to say things.

    I have a worker now, and he works about like sloths. He doesn't understand that we are "at war", and everything is pressed, and there is enormous pressure. It's like he doesn't care.

    So we have a task to clean vegetation off a fence, which is somewhat trivial to me, but important to the owner. I've had talks with the dude about this, and other things.

    Then I chose the most difficult section of fence I could find, and I removed what I could in 30 minutes. Then I marked off three hours of fence. I'm double his age. I used hand pruners only and I'm getting arthritis.

    In about 90 minutes he cleaned 40 minutes worth of fence. In some cases, he does four times as slow as me.

    You'd think with the economy there would be a line of people 100 people long waiting for jobs, but I live in rural area where I just can replace someone every day. Most quit within the first week anyway.

    Outside of my efforts to reform this individual, I have many other crusades and wars.

    I restructured things at work so that I took over jobs other people were doing badly, and gave them jobs that frustrated me. We traded duties.

    Thus, I have strong Te sometimes, but things are not going very well. After things settle down in a few weeks, I may take extended time off from work. It's really been a rough year. I hope my job and livelihood survive.


    4what percentage of the time do you externalize values verses hold your sense of discord internally?



    Probably 20 to 80. Actually it has to bug me for a while.

    Let's say it is probably naturally 20 to 80, but at work I've been forced by corporate culture and the nature of my position to address things sooner.

    5 do you hold different people tTO different expectations ? Is a sliding scale of forgiveness ?

    Yes. I once heard forgiveness described as a bank account. Some people never intend to hurt me, or if they do, it's minor. Others I need to have a bunch saved up if I go talk to them. Everyone is different.

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