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  1. #61
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Again, I wonder.... what purpose does moral nihilism serve? How does this benefit those living in the material world?
    Maybe for the same reasons we learn about gravity, or chemestry, or biology? Just to know about what surrounds us? (but this is a possible nihilist speaking)

  2. #62
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    So it is often said that INFP's are guided by moral code. And I know that alot of threads have popped up regarding what that moral code looks like (and ofcourse its unique to each individual INFP, though there seems to be some universal constants, like not harming people, being a good person, being humble, etc.) And I was just wondering...

    What thoughts do INFP's have on moral nihilism? Do INFP's reject the notion? If you think that moral nihilism might be true, then how do you go about framing your morals in life?

    It's a hard one, I know. So any info you relay at all will be quite appreciated.

    Oh, and here is the definition of moral nihilism I'm going by:

    Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism or amoralism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality may simply be a kind of make-believe, a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is seen as a human creation.[1]
    I equate moral nihilism with a dangerous logical worldview at best and true evil at worst.

    Unless you mean nihilism towards morals, i.e. a kind of agnosticism towards morals where you know they probably exist but don't really seek to define them any further, which is perfectly fine, moral nihilism as a true dismissal of morals and personal ethics essentially lowers you to backstabbing cutthroat who subscribes to a Nietzschean or Machiavellian philosophy of power and wealth through domination and manipulation of others, which is in essence the worst possible value you could possibly have as a human being.

    In my opinion, you can be a completely moral person and have nothing else going for you in your life and still be superior to even the most powerful CEO or politician. It's in this way that Ghandi and MLK were superior to the people they were up against, disproving the validity of such things as Nietzsche's philosophies or moral nihilism.

    So for me it's really not hard at all. I may not respect you if you're moral but have other things that undermine your morality, but if you're immoral of morally nihilist then I'll vehemently despise you as a traitor of humanity as a whole.

    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  3. #63
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Your say that his argument is poor and has no reasonable foundation to back it up, but I'm not hearing anything solid in your argument. If you have a reasonable foundation to back up your argument, please explain, because I would like to hear the logical reasoning behind both perspectives rather than just hear people saying the other person is wrong.
    I have not made an argument in response to his post because I have not stated a belief that I am seeking to prove, nor am I trying to disprove his belief. I answered the OP many posts ago separately from this conversation, & I was & am not interested in a debate. The minute this thread turned into "I'm right, you're wrong", then I lost interest.

    I'm not the one defending that a stance is correct or claiming another is incorrect. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    Anytime you want to address the arguments I presented, just go right ahead... I'll be here waiting. I'm trying to be patient with you, but you're determined to make that difficult.
    I did address them, and I was patient with you despite attempts to devalue my opinion because I'm an INFP. I told you what your arguments amounted to and why that disproves & proves nothing. I'm not going to pick them apart line by line when I can address them briefly & move onto more interesting threads.

    I'm not interested in conversing at length with a person when they insist that their opinion is somehow objective & more true than others, but then they approach the topic with such bias its impossible for them to see anything else; that's why I said "that's how you feel". It's your personal conclusion & has little to do with reality. I'm not interested in changing your view; at most, I was only pointing out that there are opposing views that are just as valid.

    I'm familiar with the different kinds of moral systems, and all are presented as valid ideas to consider in any class or book which covers the matter thoroughly. I certainly found some more valid than others though. A few posts on a messageboard are not going to prove "enlightening" to me when I've already considered this in the past in greater detail, I can tell you that.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    Maybe for the same reasons we learn about gravity, or chemestry, or biology? Just to know about what surrounds us? (but this is a possible nihilist speaking)
    Um, gravity, biology, and chemistry serve very practical purposes.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have not made an argument in response to his post because I have not stated a belief that I am seeking to prove, nor am I trying to disprove his belief. I answered the OP many posts ago separately from this conversation, & I was & am not interested in a debate. The minute this thread turned into "I'm right, you're wrong", then I lost interest.

    I'm not the one defending that a stance is correct or claiming another is incorrect. That's the difference.
    I'm really sorry if I've upset you in any way. I think I may have sounded much harsher than I intended.

    I wasn't saying your viewpoint was wrong, I only wanted to hear the reasoning behind your viewpoint so I could understand it better. I also don't wish to prove or disprove either side, I just like intellectual debate because I can learn from it.

  6. #66
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Morality is a "problem" that solves beautifully into a complex, yet elegant mathematical proof.

    It would be interesting to discuss in that format, no? If it could be written as such?

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7b0cLn-wHU&feature=related"]Come Forward, Silent Rogue ...[/YOUTUBE]
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  7. #67
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm not interested in conversing at length with a person when they insist that their opinion is somehow objective & more true than others, but then they approach the topic with such bias its impossible for them to see anything else; that's why I said "that's how you feel". It's your personal conclusion & has little to do with reality. I'm not interested in changing your view; at most, I was only pointing out that there are opposing views that are just as valid.
    Translation: I don't care for a fruitful discourse on this topic with a meaningful exchange of opinions and viewpoints. Oh, at least not with people that disagree with me. These are my beliefs and they get a pass because it's just my belief.

    I don't really know what "more true" means or could mean. Truth isn't really so much a quantity as it is a quality and in this case, you're either right or wrong. Now, in many philosophical dilemmas, we may never know. This is where concepts like epistemic warrant and probability come into play.

    You are right about me being subjective about this — I do think my view about ethics is more consistent with the ontology we find ourselves in, and I think yours is less consistent; so in a sense, I guess I do think my view is "more true."

    However, I'm not saying you're totally wrong for believing it. I have to assume that people actually base their beliefs from their experiences, and even if they find strong evidence and reasoning contrary to it, they cling to what corresponds with their reality as a means to explain what they've seen, experienced, felt, etc. Even if this is what you're doing, I'm doing the same thing.

    So whatever. To each their own, I guess. I would probably agree with most of the ethical stances you advocate with few exceptions.
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  8. #68
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    Moral Nihilism, as defined in the OP, subscribes to no moral system. It provides no more reason to be selfish than it does selfless, cruel than it does nice, it offers no more reason to want truth than to reject it etc.

    As for practicality, well if true it has about as much practicality as larger truths that don't impact daily life much (that the stars are x distance away etc.). It will impact behaviour, if true or believed in, like anything will to some degree, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that belief in Moral Nihilism makes people become more psychopathic, violent, self-centred, cruel and such. I think the most likely correlation is the other way round, that those who fit that list of adjectives try and use Moral Nihilism to justify their actions. It would be interesting to see how represented Moral Nihilists are amongst criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    if we say that no moral objective truth can ever be known.. is not the existance of this concept attempting to be a moral objective truth in and of itself? *brain hurts* I don't understand how it can proven, how can it be fact?
    The first problem there is a semantic misunderstanding.

    Morality is a vague (unclear definitions) and ambiguous (multiple definitions) term. Under the semantics of that question, Moral Nihilism is "there are no objective moral truths, except for this one", simply because an objective moral truth is redefined to include the lack of objective moral truths (lack of objective moral truths under different semantics, that is, hence no contradiction). Under the semantics of that question, it is not possible to lack morality.

    As for the second question, it can't be proven fully, at least at the moment, but evidence for or against it can be gathered rather easily.

  9. #69
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    When you talk about what society has agreed upon as being acceptable and moral, you're talking about ethics, which is different from morality. Morality is for the individual, ethics is for society. This is not in conflict with moral nihilism. Moral nihilism can be applied to this if one decides that these ethics are simply an agreed-upon set of values rather than an absolute moral truth.

    This is exactly what ethics are for. Ethics form the guidelines for what values are socially acceptable. If one chooses to follow values that are in direct conflict with ethics, one runs the risk of upsetting the harmony. It is always a choice of the individual whether to accept society's ethics or to oppose them, following instead their own moral beliefs.
    When I say moral norms that are agreed upon, I do not mean it so much in literal terms. I meant that societies for the most part have fundamentally the same moral views. Of course, cultures interpret these views slightly differently, and some societies are corrupted by personal interest (rather than what is good and just for all) and may fail to adhere to these norms. I see the way humanity moves toward creating ethical systems, not as coming together to manufacture social guidelines, but as indicative of the enduring, underlying, congruence in moral views that always existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    Also, I'm pretty sure that consciousness does not exist independently of our thoughts and desires... after all, isn't consciousness RESPONSIBLE for thoughts and desires, or at least responsible for processing them/interpreting them to ourselves?
    Perhaps I didn't word it well. I meant that consciousness exists regardless of thoughts and desires that result from it; they seem at first glance to be intertwined, but thought/desire alone cannot change consciousness and their existence is wholly dependent on its.

    I was attempting to draw a comparison between consciousness and universal morals, as well as between thoughts/desires (ie. the variety of applications that consciousness can take) and the diversity of moral interpretations (ie. cultural/subjective values) that can result from the same essential origin.

    At this point, why not just bypass the analogy and say morality is a byproduct of consciousness, i.e., it is a human construct? You don't seem to have any sort of evidence or reasoning that morality really "exists" outside of its status as an idea.

    What you're doing is making a lot of mysterious, spiritual assertions that are really epistemically unfounded.
    No indeed. There was no spirituality intended. I only wished to demonstrate that morality is complex and enigmatic as consciousness is, but that it doesn't follow that we cannot outline it with some objectivity. You argument appears to be that morality doesn't resemble mathematics: constant, quantifiable, impersonal; and for this reason it must be arbitrary. Would you have everything that doesn't fit this mold be thrown into the box labelled, "subjective human construct"?

    You accuse us of not understanding philosophy, but yet you do not wish to engage debate in the accepted manner of philosophical discussion. Appealing to hypothetical concepts and intuitive perception are commonplace approaches; claiming there is no concrete proof for an argument is absurd. It is philosophy after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm not interested in conversing at length with a person when they insist that their opinion is somehow objective & more true than others, but then they approach the topic with such bias its impossible for them to see anything else; that's why I said "that's how you feel". It's your personal conclusion & has little to do with reality. I'm not interested in changing your view; at most, I was only pointing out that there are opposing views that are just as valid.

    I'm familiar with the different kinds of moral systems, and all are presented as valid ideas to consider in any class or book which covers the matter thoroughly. I certainly found some more valid than others though. A few posts on a messageboard are not going to prove "enlightening" to me when I've already considered this in the past in greater detail, I can tell you that.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Metaphysically describe what you think morality is.

    Do you think consciousness can occur without a brain? If not, what do you mean by calling it transcendent then?

    How would we go about "universally employing" consciousness?

    Are the codes of morality immutable?

    ... that can exist from the same essential origin.
    What would this origin be then, exactly, if it a) wasn't an intrinsic property of the universe and b) wasn't man-made?

    I mean, if morality isn't an intrinsic quality of the universe, and it isn't a human construct... what the fuck is it?
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