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  1. #51
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    I don't think it does serve a purpose in reality, at all, though honestly some people might think that's just because the question is over my head.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    do not lie for personal gain, self-preservation, or to protect those who have done wrong
    You know I didn't notice this before. I would have agreed with everything you said except for "don't lie for self-preservation." I don't think so. I think when it comes down to self-preservation - real self-preservation - lying is totally fine, as well as stealing and possibly violence depending on context. There's nothing wrong with lying if it keeps you out of real danger or something along those lines, there's nothing wrong with stealing food if you're starving, and there's nothing wrong with violence in self-defense.

  3. #53
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You know I didn't notice this before. I would have agreed with everything you said except for "don't lie for self-preservation." I don't think so. I think when it comes down to self-preservation - real self-preservation - lying is totally fine, as well as stealing and possibly violence depending on context. There's nothing wrong with lying if it keeps you out of real danger or something along those lines, there's nothing wrong with stealing food if you're starving, and there's nothing wrong with violence in self-defense.
    Ah. I changed the wording of that sentence at the last minute and the meaning was muddled. I meant more in the context of lying simply to get yourself out of trouble when you've done wrong - and certainly not when you're threatened with violence etc. I intended to make the whole thing about differentiating between lying for the sake of others and lying to weasel your way out of things.

    I agree with your other points here too.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #54
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That's how you feel. I can assure you many would feel quite the opposite: that there are problems on our hands when you start saying there is no inherent element of morality in the universe.
    We know gravity exists, even if we don't know what it is. We see & feel the effects of it.
    No, that's what I think. There's no gut feelings and intuitions on my behalf — I'll leave those up to you since you seem to be committed to trusting such follies. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but you aren't doing a good job at showing it.

    If there is an inherent element of morality in our universe, how come people seem to have skewed and differing perceptions of morality? If morality is an innate element of the cosmos, namely human life on Earth, how come no one has ever been able to agree on moral imperatives? I mean, if there were such objective moral truths, everyone would know what they were and they would be intrinsically motivated to follow them.

    This leads me to my next argument. If objective moral values do exist, they would be an incredibly odd sort of entity or relation, unlike anything else in existence. In other words... if morality isn't a human construct, just what the fuck is it? Also, if we were aware of these objective moral values, our acquisition of this knowledge would be very strange indeed. This leads to the question: how are we are of this "authoritative prescriptivity?"

    If you argue that natural properties lead to having the exact same set of moral abstractions, then the link between the natural properties and the acquisition of said moral abstractions would be an anomaly, thus unlikely. Not to mention, this seems to be falsifiable — people of varying geography have varying ideas of morality.

    The only other answer you could offer is that everyone has metaphysical ties to some intrinsically motivating and objectively normative force of morality, in some way or another, with or without realizing it. This answer isn't helpful or adequate because we don't know what this intrinsically motivating and objectively normative force is, nor do we seem to observe its presence otherwise. To even build an idea of it, we'd have to interview those that claim to have ties to such a force (e.g., God/gods, spirituality). Sure enough, different religions would yield different ideas of morality and ideals and different mystical tenets would yield equally different ideas of morality and ideals.

    If we were to ask them how to become aware of these objective morals and ideals, they would tell us to open ourselves to enlightenment, accept Jesus as our savior, worship Allah, follow the Four Noble Truths, meditate, and so on and so forth.

    Can you see why the idea of an objective morality just doesn't make a whole lot of sense? I'm sorry for delivering a sermon, but Mackie makes a cogent case against objective morality.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    There are many things human beings don't understand, but full comprehension is not always necessary for us to function in accordance with something. Consciousness, for example, is not scientifically understood at all; we may never be able to properly explain it. However, we don't need to understand what it is or what it means, in order to use it effectively or recognise it when we 'see' it.

    I don't believe that morality is intrinsic to the universe, totally separate to human existence, but I also don't believe it is a human construct. Just because it requires the existence of people, doesn't mean they created it. To go back to the analogy: consciousness, like morality, exists completely independent of our thoughts and desires. In fact, it generates the ability for us to experience things and make decisions, but it exists in a separate and transcendent state. We don't choose to be conscious, nor can we manufacture it; we don't even have to be aware of our own consciousness in order to function; it just is.
    To even respond to this post, I have to pick apart the analogy you've offered. Obviously consciousness "exists," or at least, we perceive it to. The difference is that when discussing consciousness, we usually have something to point to: the brain. What do we point to when discussing morality? Now, I'm not saying that consciousness is merely an extension of the brain; I'm not going to commit myself to any personal metaphysic in this discussion.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that consciousness does not exist independently of our thoughts and desires... after all, isn't consciousness RESPONSIBLE for thoughts and desires, or at least responsible for processing them/interpreting them to ourselves? If not, what is? Please don't say something like "the brain is, but consciousness is..." I don't want to derail this thread with the mind/body problem.

    At this point, why not just bypass the analogy and say morality is a byproduct of consciousness, i.e., it is a human construct? You don't seem to have any sort of evidence or reasoning that morality really "exists" outside of its status as an idea.

    What you're doing is making a lot of mysterious, spiritual assertions that are really epistemically unfounded.
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  6. #56
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    No, that's what I think. There's no gut feelings and intuitions on my behalf — I'll leave those up to you since you seem to be committed to trusting such follies. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but you aren't doing a good job at showing it.
    Not at all. I'm a reasoning person & trust that first & foremost. You're the one making this personal; I haven't even fully offered what I do or don't believe.

    I find your diatribe of arguments poor. They mostly amount to: "we can't figure out X yet, so Y can't exist". Everything else amounts to assumptions on your part steeped in bias & with no foundation or even reasonable argument to back it up.

    If objective moral values do exist, they would be an incredibly odd sort of entity or relation, unlike anything else in existence
    Because???? How do you claim to know this? Don't even bother to answer though - it is rhetorical.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #57
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, that's what I think. There's no gut feelings and intuitions on my behalf — I'll leave those up to you since you seem to be committed to trusting such follies. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but you aren't doing a good job at showing it.
    Not at all. I'm a reasoning person & trust that first & foremost. You're the one making this personal; I haven't even fully offered what I do or don't believe.

    I find your diatribe of arguments poor. They mostly amount to: "we can't figure out X yet, so Y can't exist". Everything else amounts to assumptions on your part steeped in bias & with no foundation or even reasonable argument to back it up.

    If objective moral values do exist, they would be an incredibly odd sort of entity or relation, unlike anything else in existence
    Because???? How do you claim to know this? Don't even bother to answer though - it is rhetorical.
    Your say that his argument is poor and has no reasonable foundation to back it up, but I'm not hearing anything solid in your argument. If you have a reasonable foundation to back up your argument, please explain, because I would like to hear the logical reasoning behind both perspectives rather than just hear people saying the other person is wrong.

  8. #58
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    When I was a child, I reacted to a big fish being killed. We were in the gulf, and the fish flopped. Blood splattered on the white deck, and the fish made grunting noises. I started crying because the grunting.

    My punishment (treatment) for being a sissy was to sit on the ice chest to prevent the fish from flopping back out. Thus, I held down the lid as the flops grew slower and the fish died.

    Did something in me die as well? Is this good or bad? Perhaps it is both. I like to eat fish. In my job, I kill hundreds of thousands of fish. Buddhist guilt! My job is based on the notion of making room to allow one fish grow by killing one that is uglier. I am the "god of fish", deciding thousands of times a day between life and death.

    Am I moral nihilist? Not sure. Does it matter? Would a "true" nihilist even bother to answer? What would be the point? What would be the point of anything?

    I guess there is a part of me that is still alive since I can sense the feeling of the animals and their need, but I still kill many thousands to benefit a few select. Thus, I have crossed the line of fish murder, and now I can turn off my empathy for those that must die.

  9. #59
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Well, I'm INFP and I believe that nothing is "neither inherently right nor inherently wrong", morals are human creations, and they depend from one society to another. But just because they were made by humans, it doesn't mean I have to give no value to those morals.... I'm not sure if that is nihilism or not... :P (I don't know much about philosophy, but my guess is that moral nihilism says that nothing has an intrinsic value, but it doesn't say you can't give the values you want to what you want, and it doesn't say you can't use society's values and morals if you want to... For me, it just gives you the freedom to choose... Correct me if I'm wrong...)

  10. #60
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not at all. I'm a reasoning person & trust that first & foremost. You're the one making this personal; I haven't even fully offered what I do or don't believe.

    I find your diatribe of arguments poor. They mostly amount to: "we can't figure out X yet, so Y can't exist". Everything else amounts to assumptions on your part steeped in bias & with no foundation or even reasonable argument to back it up.



    Because???? How do you claim to know this? Don't even bother to answer though - it is rhetorical.
    Anytime you want to address the arguments I presented, just go right ahead... I'll be here waiting. I'm trying to be patient with you, but you're determined to make that difficult.
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