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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i fully understand and agree, but there's still a lot of gray area in that, because everyone has their own ideas of who's innocent and who's guilty.

    i'm not questioning this kind of stuff with every value judgement i make, but it keeps me from being preachy (sometimes) because i know that i could be potentially be wrong about everything.
    That's true - who is innocent or guilty can be a matter of perspective.

    Caution: Long-Winded Diatribe of How Taoism Appeals to Me for Fi Reasoning (and how this relates to what you just said...).

    One of the teachings of Taoism is to look a singular event from varying viewpoints. For example, let's cut down a tree. This is bad for the tree. This is bad for the small animals living in the tree. This is bad for the environmentalist. However, this is good for the logger, the furniture maker and the paper factory...and perhaps even the neighbor who wanted that tree out of the way of his view. Taoism pretty much asks us to look at varying situations in this manner.

    That isn't to say that Taoism teaches no good or bad. To the contrary, there are principles of Taoism - oneness with nature and respect for nature; Wu-Wei ...or flowing like water, adapting and sometimes taking action by being inactive, listening to The Way; Love (or Charity or Compassion); Simplicity (or Moderation or Economy); and Modesty (or Humility or simply not putting one's self first and/or above others).

    Taoism strikes me as being rather ISFP - it could just be my own interpretation. Fi is in the love/compassion and not trying to overpower others with one's own belief system....actually Taoism is supposed to shared by being it, not by trying to "convert" others or "preach" like some other religions. Se is in the connection of spirituality strongly with nature, and also in the fact that Taoism doesn't teach asceticism...rather, it teaches us to accept that physical needs and pleasures are a part of life to be accepted and enjoyed, not rejected, but simply to be taken in Moderation (or Economy, which I think may be the "reasonable" Te underlying, inferior organization in Taoism though on the surface it simply "flows"); and the Ni is in the perspective shifting, of looking at situations as "good" or "bad" depending on perspective and context and consequence; how could this same issue be viewed differently or be handled differently? Could we simply go AROUND the tree instead of cutting it down? Et al.

    The stereotypical ISFP thing about Taoism outside of the functions is the emphasis on Wu-Wei. This is put humorously in both The Tao of Pooh and The Tao of Meow. Pooh is Wu-Wei by appreciating the simple pleasures in life, like friends and breakfast. He also represents Pu: Simplicity, Modesty ...the "uncarved block."

    It's put in an even wittier way in The Tao of Meow. This interpretation of the Tao suggests the world would be a much better place if people would simply act like cats and take more naps. If people would just go to sleep instead of always trying to "do good" then REAL goodness might be done, lol.

  2. #42
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    heres another question- if we say that no moral objective truth can ever be known.. is not the existance of this concept attempting to be a moral objective truth in and of itself? *brain hurts* I don't understand how it can proven, how can it be fact?
    Ah, the Tu Quoque (you, also) argument.

    There is a (more recent) philosophy that attempts to deal with this.
    But on a personal level, someone can believe a particular set of moral truths without assuming that they are universal/fundamental. It is sufficient to accept that there is a chance those truths could be revisable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    The perfect way knows no difficulties
    Except that it refuses to make preferences;
    Only when freed from hate and love
    It reveals itself fully and without disguise;
    A tenth of an inch's difference,
    And heaven and earth are set apart.
    If you wish to see it before your own eyes
    Have no fixed thoughts either for or against it.

    To set up what you like against what you dislike -
    That is the disease of the mind:
    When the deep meaning (of the Way) is not understood,
    Peace of mind is disturbed to no purpose.

    The Way is perfect like unto vast space,
    It is indeed due to making choice
    That its Suchness is lost sight of.

    Pursue not the outer entanglements,
    Dwell not in the inner Void;
    Be serene in the oneness of things,
    And dualism vanishes by itself.

    When you strive to gain quiescence by stopping motion,
    The quiescence thus gained is ever in motion;
    As long as you tarry in dualism,
    How can you realize oneness?

    And when oneness is not thoroughly understood,
    In two ways loss is sustained:
    The denying of reality is the asserting of it,
    And the asserting of emptiness is the denying of it.

    Wordliness and intellection -
    The more with them, the farther astray we go:
    Away, therefore, with wordliness and intellection,
    and there is no place where we cannot pass freely.

    When we return to the root, we gain the meaning;
    When we pursue external objects we lose the reason.
    The moment we are enlightened within,
    We go beyond the voidness of a world confronting us.

    Transformations going on in an empty world which confronts us
    Appear real all because of ignorance:
    Try not to seek after the true.
    Only cease to cherish opinions
    Worth quoting again.
    It is attributed to Jianzhi Sengcan.

    It is impossible to pin down and I think that is the point.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's put in an even wittier way in The Tao of Meow. This interpretation of the Tao suggests the world would be a much better place if people would simply act like cats and take more naps. If people would just go to sleep instead of always trying to "do good" then REAL goodness might be done, lol.
    That sounds like a Type 9 mentality... Prevents zealotry, but also acts as an enabler of sorts.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    That sounds like a Type 9 mentality... Prevents zealotry, but also acts as an enabler of sorts.
    Yes, if this were taken in isolation it would be. The Tao is full of paradoxes. Sometimes it's best to just take naps. Sometimes it's best to put forth action. Context is everything and too much of anything is imbalance.

    It's extremely important to grasp the Wu-Wei thing, though. Especially in modern Western culture where we've put an overemphasis on "doing" and "busy." Fighting The Way is a waste of energy.

    It's something that I'm learning myself but of all of the philosophies I've ever been exposed to this makes sense to me on such a fundamental level, it's just like YES! YES!

  5. #45
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    I'm an INxP that is a moral nihilist/moral skeptic. I am what you would call a first-order moral skeptic; I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "good" or "bad" action because I don't think we have adequate knowledge of what good or bad means, right or wrong means, etc. Meta-ethically speaking, good or bad might mean something, but we don't know what they mean if they do. Being a moral nihilist or moral skeptic doesn't mean you treat people inhumanely or unfairly. After all, we have no problem telling a cruel action from a kind one, a just one from an unjust one, etc.
    There are many things human beings don't understand, but full comprehension is not always necessary for us to function in accordance with something. Consciousness, for example, is not scientifically understood at all; we may never be able to properly explain it. However, we don't need to understand what it is or what it means, in order to use it effectively or recognise it when we 'see' it.

    Also, let's just avoid using the term nihilist as a world view. It's fucking meaningless.
    Pun intended?

    I can understand positing morality as a human construction, but when you start saying it's an inherent element of the universe... then we've got problems on our hands.
    Oh, I see. You're getting all, "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

    I don't believe that morality is intrinsic to the universe, totally separate to human existence, but I also don't believe it is a human construct. Just because it requires the existence of people, doesn't mean they created it. To go back to the analogy: consciousness, like morality, exists completely independent of our thoughts and desires. In fact, it generates the ability for us to experience things and make decisions, but it exists in a separate and transcendent state. We don't choose to be conscious, nor can we manufacture it; we don't even have to be aware of our own consciousness in order to function; it just is.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #46
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm welcome here, being an INTP, but I want to clarify that moral nihilism is not the same thing as being amoral. All moral nihilism is really saying is that what we call morality is the same as personal values or opinion, rather than some absolute objective truth. It's not saying that you shouldn't be moral because of that. It simply means you recognize that when you say something is right or wrong, you're stating your own personal belief/opinion.
    I'm confused how this can work. Human beings naturally seek to establish moral norms for all. And as humanity has slowly become more interconnected and less driven by religious/ethnic/tribal divides, there has been even greater attempts to judge all people under a universal moral code. How do you account for the Geneva convention?

    I am a moral skeptic. I can't say I know what is "right" or "wrong", and I can't say that "right" and "wrong" can ever be known, or that they even exist. But I still strive to be a good person, despite all the not knowing, because I choose to be, not because it is "right", but because I because I value it.
    The reason many here react strongly to this is because just how dangerous this can be. If everyone simply acted in accordance with their own values, no one could be held accountable to the values of others. You might believe it to be wrong to be unfaithful to your SO but without moral universalism, they are under no obligation to remain faithful to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    I think it sounds more like a Fi thing. Objective truth sounds more Te to me than anything else, so I'm kind of surprised that so many Fi users would believe in such a thing. I would have thought they would agree that morality is the same as personal values, and that we can never really know the truth.
    Yes, one would think so at first glance. I suppose when Fi is combined with Ne, there is a desire to establish an all encompassing system, within which all patterns and variables can be addressed.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #47
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, I see. You're getting all, "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

    I don't believe that morality is intrinsic to the universe, totally separate to human existence, but I also don't believe it is a human construct. Just because it requires the existence of people, doesn't mean they created it. To go back to the analogy: consciousness, like morality, exists completely independent of our thoughts and desires. In fact, it generates the ability for us to experience things and make decisions, but it exists in a separate and transcendent state. We don't choose to be conscious, nor can we manufacture it; we don't even have to be aware of our own consciousness in order to function; it just is.
    All concepts are, by definition, the product of human cognition. Morality is no exception. But if what you claim is true, and morality exists in a separate transcendent state, then that would have to mean that morality is an odd exception to what has already been established. Still, no one can say whether the former or the latter is the truth. Since the truth cannot be determined, I'm going to follow Jianzhi Sengcan's advice:

    Try not to seek after the true.
    Only cease to cherish opinions

  8. #48
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm welcome here, being an INTP, but I want to clarify that moral nihilism is not the same thing as being amoral. All moral nihilism is really saying is that what we call morality is the same as personal values or opinion, rather than some absolute objective truth. It's not saying that you shouldn't be moral because of that. It simply means you recognize that when you say something is right or wrong, you're stating your own personal belief/opinion.
    I'm confused how this can work. Human beings naturally seek to establish moral norms for all. And as humanity has slowly become more interconnected and less driven by religious/ethnic/tribal divides, there has been even greater attempts to judge all people under a universal moral code. How do you account for the Geneva convention?
    When you talk about what society has agreed upon as being acceptable and moral, you're talking about ethics, which is different from morality. Morality is for the individual, ethics is for society. This is not in conflict with moral nihilism. Moral nihilism can be applied to this if one decides that these ethics are simply
    an agreed-upon set of values rather than an absolute moral truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I am a moral skeptic. I can't say I know what is "right" or "wrong", and I can't say that "right" and "wrong" can ever be known, or that they even exist. But I still strive to be a good person, despite all the not knowing, because I choose to be, not because it is "right", but because I because I value it.
    The reason many here react strongly to this is because just how dangerous this can be. If everyone simply acted in accordance with their own values, no one could be held accountable to the values of others. You might believe it to be wrong to be unfaithful to your SO but without moral universalism, they are under no obligation to remain faithful to you.
    This is exactly what ethics are for. Ethics form the guidelines for what values are socially acceptable. If one chooses to follow values that are in direct conflict with ethics, one runs the risk of upsetting the harmony. It is always a choice of the individual whether to accept society's ethics or to oppose them, following instead their own moral beliefs.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    The reason many here react strongly to this is because just how dangerous this can be. If everyone simply acted in accordance with their own values, no one could be held accountable to the values of others. You might believe it to be wrong to be unfaithful to your SO but without moral universalism, they are under no obligation to remain faithful to you.
    But we don't have to have a universal morality to have your SO be faithful to you...that's completely dependent upon the morals of the individual. Universal morality has about zero to do with that...some people believe strongly in monogamy and honesty if you do want other partners (it's the lying part of cheating that drives me to want to kill) and it's best if you also pair with another who strongly feels the same. Even with a larger societal ethical system in place, even someone who gives lip service to the societal ethics of marital fidelity could cheat secretly. People did it all the time back in history before people started being more honest about their own personal morals.

    I still believe some things are absolute moral truth and I feel it in every part of me. Like people who torture animals and harm the innocent should always be stopped and punished. I won't budge on that, ever.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    . Universal morality has about zero to do with that....
    Very important statement. Regardless of objective moral truth or the lack their of, our survival solely rests on the subjective morality of the majority. Kill someone and you will be hunted, if not jailed or exterminated.

    Again, I wonder.... what purpose does moral nihilism serve? How does this benefit those living in the material world?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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