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  1. #21
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Question: if you are conflicted or confused or ambiguous about what is right and wrong, does that make you a nihilist? If so, does that mean Marm's gonna give me a wedgie?

  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    I can't believe the hilariously misguided hate moral skepticism is receiving. INFPs, for a rigorous defense of moral skepticism, read J.L. Mackie's Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong.
    Project much? There's no hate in here. I took an ethics class in college too, thanks.

    I can understand positing morality as a human construction, but when you start saying it's an inherent element of the universe... then we've got problems on our hands.
    That's how you feel. I can assure you many would feel quite the opposite: that there are problems on our hands when you start saying there is no inherent element of morality in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    In our thousands of years of human experience, how come we STILL don't know what gravity is yet we use it to explain so much? I think morality is in a similar position... it's deeply ingrained in our everyday judgments and our overall outlook of life, yet we don't really understand it.

    The difference here is that gravity is undoubtedly a physical construct and not a human one, one that exists whether we care or not.
    We know gravity exists, even if we don't know what it is. We see & feel the effects of it.
    All your argument does here is support that we can determine that morality (and lack of it) exists in a similar way.
    We don't know that morality is undoubtedly a human construct or not a human construct either. Do the effects of morality (or lack of) only exist if you "care"?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #23
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm gonna try to shake this up a little, in a good way. If this turns into a "NO U" thread.. I'm going to be truly dissapointed, as I know that everyone thats commented so far is capeable of articulating ideas without personal attacks. Immediately jumping to what kinds of people subsribe to these ideas is useless, if we don't fully comprehend the ideas first. This is what I'm asking help with.. people who have a really good grasp on what moral nihilism and objective truth entails, and IF they think it holds some value, how do they go about framing their personal morals.

    Lets stick to the concept at hand for now. Moral nihilism and objective truth. What does this really mean?

    Objective (in that its applied to everyone) and moral truth (in that it must provide some motivational force).

    One of the more univeral morals.. to not kill. Does this apply to everyone? What about sociopaths, war leaders, or killing in defense? If it is not okay to kill a human, what about an animal? What about any sentient being? What about an ant that you accidentally step on. How do we decide what is valueable and what isn't? Is it a moral objective truth if we say there are exceptions to it?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #24
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    I'm an INxP that is a moral nihilist/moral skeptic. I am what you would call a first-order moral skeptic; I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "good" or "bad" action because I don't think we have adequate knowledge of what good or bad means, right or wrong means, etc. Meta-ethically speaking, good or bad might mean something, but we don't know what they mean if they do. Being a moral nihilist or moral skeptic doesn't mean you treat people inhumanely or unfairly. After all, we have no problem telling a cruel action from a kind one, a just one from an unjust one, etc.

    I can't believe the hilariously misguided hate moral skepticism is receiving. INFPs, for a rigorous defense of moral skepticism, read J.L. Mackie's Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong. Also, let's just avoid using the term nihilist as a world view. It's fucking meaningless. If everything was really meaningless, then the individual asserting that would be incapable of or would refrain from placing value on people, things, goals, moments, etc. in their life. Psychology tells us this isn't the case when we're dealing with normal people.

    I can understand positing morality as a human construction, but when you start saying it's an inherent element of the universe... then we've got problems on our hands.
    +1

    I'm not sure if I'm welcome here, being an INTP, but I want to clarify that moral nihilism is not the same thing as being amoral. All moral nihilism is really saying is that what we call morality is the same as personal values or opinion, rather than some absolute objective truth. It's not saying that you shouldn't be moral because of that. It simply means you recognize that when you say something is right or wrong, you're stating your own personal belief/opinion.

    And by the way, @Marmie Dearest, if you want to punch me or call me a coward for having my own set of personal values that I will follow no matter what, while at the same time accepting that all morality is relative and subjective, go ahead. I am a moral skeptic. I can't say I know what is "right" or "wrong", and I can't say that "right" and "wrong" can ever be known, or that they even exist. But I still strive to be a good person, despite all the not knowing, because I choose to be, not because it is "right", but because I because I value it.

  5. #25
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    And by the way, @Marmie Dearest, if you want to punch me or call me a coward for having my own set of personal values that I will follow no matter what, while at the same time accepting that all morality is relative and subjective, go ahead. I am a moral skeptic. I can't say I know what is "right" or "wrong", and I can't say that "right" and "wrong" can ever be known, or that they even exist. But I still strive to be a good person, despite all the not knowing, because I choose to be, not because it is "right", but because I because I value it.
    Wait, is that a Ti thing? 'Cause I feel the same way. O_O
    MBTI: INFP
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    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Wait, is that a Ti thing? 'Cause I feel the same way. O_O
    I think it sounds more like a Fi thing. Objective truth sounds more Te to me than anything else, so I'm kind of surprised that so many Fi users would believe in such a thing. I would have thought they would agree that morality is the same as personal values, and that we can never really know the truth.

  7. #27
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    I think it sounds more like a Fi thing. Objective truth sounds more Te to me than anything else, so I'm kind of surprised that so many Fi users would believe in such a thing. I would have thought they would agree that morality is the same as personal values, and that we can never really know the truth.
    Wait, I'm a little confused. Fi users believe in what such a thing? Objective truth? I thought you were arguing for that against them.

    I was saying I agreed with what you had said.
    MBTI: INFP
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    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

    Tatiana ♥

  8. #28
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Yes yes! Thank you @RevlisZero and @NegativeZero!

    This was my point. This was exactly my point. And now I'm not going to get into extremely basic discussion on how even something as abhorent as killing, is infact, STILL really a personal value/opinion.

    @Hazashin, I don't think it's Ti.. but I think that Ti users might be more likely to understand the distinction in definitions and realize you CAN believe that a moral objective truth doesn't exist or can never be known, yet still apply values in your own personal life.

    heres another question- if we say that no moral objective truth can ever be known.. is not the existance of this concept attempting to be a moral objective truth in and of itself? *brain hurts* I don't understand how it can proven, how can it be fact?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  9. #29
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    /brain fried
    MBTI: INFP
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    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

    Tatiana ♥

  10. #30
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Wait, I'm a little confused. Fi users believe in what such a thing? Objective truth? I thought you were arguing for that against them.

    I was saying I agreed with what you had said.
    The Fi users on this thread were saying they reject moral nihilism, which implies that they believe in objective moral truths. I was arguing for moral nihilism.

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