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  1. #11
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I also wanted to add that I don't really think people that subscribe to moral nihilism do this to be cowardess, lazy, or mean. Some might. I think there are people that really have a highly objective framework created (one that I struggle to understand actually) so I was hoping you guys might be able to shed light.
    Sure, nothing is worth anything if we look at it from afar. But, immediately when we change our perspective to animal realm, we find that usually there is a universal moral code, which is that the same species do not kill each other (usually). This moral code is developed into societies of animals that not only do not kill each other, but work together as well, even die for each other. If we think that we are the socially most developed animal, or even if we are in the top ten, then we can't disregard the fact that we have a universal code for ourselves. Looking at this "objectively" and not seeing the fact is ridiculous.

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Sure, nothing is worth anything if we look at it from afar. But, immediately when we change our perspective to animal realm, we find that usually there is a universal moral code, which is that the same species do not kill each other (usually). This moral code is developed into societies of animals that not only do not kill each other, but work together as well, even die for each other. If we think that we are the socially most developed animal, or even if we are in the top ten, then we can't disregard the fact that we have a universal code for ourselves. Looking at this "objectively" and not seeing the fact is ridiculous.
    I was going to use this as an example of a "universal moral value". It's one of the most basic that seems to stretch across cultures & time: it is wrong kill another human unless you have a "good reason" to do so. Now what constitutes a "good reason" will vary wildly across cultures & time, but "any old reason" doesn't ever seem to be morally acceptable. A culture's standards may seem skewed to another's, but they'll certainly view them as "good reasons".

    There has to be some justification, basically, and a few of the more common ones used throughout time & various cultures are:

    - Self-defense or defense of someone else's life, which is also often used to justify wartime killing (the enemy nation is a threat to the lives of others). This is the #1 reason you see, and with few exceoptions, most agree to it (not wartime killing per se, but individual self-defense).
    - Dehumanization or devaluing - The person/group is downgraded as less than human in some sense ("uncivilized" or a "lesser race"), and since they are no longer the "same kind" & have less value, then it's okay to kill them (and take their land & wealth...often the true motive, but one not seen as morally justified). Female infanticide probably falls under this also, and arguably, abortion.
    - Honor & spirituality. These are "sacrifices" often tied to religious ceremony or defending your own faith or honor; the idea is often that the person will be granted some amazing reward in the afterlife or continuing on with such shame would be unbearable, so their earthly life is then devalued enough to take.
    - A higher power authorizes the death. This is often government (ie. death sentence or war) or religion, and sometimes by extension, a god. In any case, the deed is not linked to any human individual, but some kind of faceless entity, removing responsibility & guilt from the individuals involved.
    - Mercy killing - a person is in such pain it's merciful to put them out of their misery.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #13
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    I'm not self-typed as an INFP, but I'd like to chime in here that I usually want to punch moral nihilists in the face. It just seems absolutely absurd to me, not to mention assholish and cowardly and all of those other things that have already been said.

    Actually, what I picture is an INTx sitting in his house/apartment ALONE. IN DIM LIGHT. Surrounding by thousands of books and some empty take out boxes.

    It's pretty easy to pretend that nothing, no nothing, has meaning when you never leave the house and deal with real human consequence. Nihilism seems so irritatingly theoretical to me, like you couldn't engage in it if you forced yourself to live real life and face the pain of real living creatures, especially other humans.

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ^ So you basically you imagine Nietzsche
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ^ So you basically you imagine Nietzsche
    Yes, he was a sad little man. When I read a biography of his actual life I then found his philosophy absolutely comical... "oooooh...this makes soo much sense now..."

  6. #16
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    I'm an INxP that is a moral nihilist/moral skeptic. I am what you would call a first-order moral skeptic; I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "good" or "bad" action because I don't think we have adequate knowledge of what good or bad means, right or wrong means, etc. Meta-ethically speaking, good or bad might mean something, but we don't know what they mean if they do. Being a moral nihilist or moral skeptic doesn't mean you treat people inhumanely or unfairly. After all, we have no problem telling a cruel action from a kind one, a just one from an unjust one, etc.

    I can't believe the hilariously misguided hate moral skepticism is receiving. INFPs, for a rigorous defense of moral skepticism, read J.L. Mackie's Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong. Also, let's just avoid using the term nihilist as a world view. It's fucking meaningless. If everything was really meaningless, then the individual asserting that would be incapable of or would refrain from placing value on people, things, goals, moments, etc. in their life. Psychology tells us this isn't the case when we're dealing with normal people.

    I can understand positing morality as a human construction, but when you start saying it's an inherent element of the universe... then we've got problems on our hands.
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  7. #17
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    We don't have adequate knowledge of what good or bad, right or wrong, means from thousands of years of human experience the world over? Pray tell.

    If good or bad mean something, we don't know what they might mean if they do?

    If you understand terms like cruel, unfair, unjust, and inhumane then I think this is just a pedantic parade of semantics.

  8. #18
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Moral nihilism just doesn't work if you live any kind of life in society.
    And another part of me, the cantankerous old women, says there no such thing as morals these days. These young 'uns would sell their grandmother to the knackers if it would get them the latest piece of techno crap.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    I am an INFJ, not INFP, but I just wanted to say that moral nihilism is usually popular because people just don't want to have to be responsible for their own behavior.

    You may believe that things are relative - like killing someone is not wrong or right, until the person who is killed is someone you love. Then you realize that it is obviously wrong.

    There really are absolute rights and wrongs. Pretending morals are completely subjective is like pretending that gravity or economics are subjective. You have to earn money to buy food or you will go hungry, and if you jump off a cliff you are going to get killed.

    If you really believe morals are relative, then you can never be mad at anyone for doing anything to you. After all, it's all relative. So they can hit you, steal your money, rape your family members, and you shouldn't even get mad. But morals are just stuffy things created by people, right?

    Some morals are subjective, or culturally related, but the big ones are real, whether you like it or not.

  10. #20
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    We don't have adequate knowledge of what good or bad, right or wrong, means from thousands of years of human experience the world over? Pray tell.

    If good or bad mean something, we don't know what they might mean if they do?

    If you understand terms like cruel, unfair, unjust, and inhumane then I think this is just a pedantic parade of semantics.
    Okay. You're welcome to have your opinion, but I'm just going to tell you that it's wrong. Your first question implicitly assumes that morality is an element engineered into the world. It's not — if you believe it so, why not substantiate your assertion? Second question: yep, that's exactly what I think. We have some ideas, but we have nothing objective. And for your third statement, I disagree. Terms like cruel, just, fair, etc. are investigated more thoroughly within the topic of deserts. I'm telling you, morality is not this black and white.

    In your first question, you act as if our human experience somehow grants us a right to knowledge. In our thousands of years of human experience, how come we STILL don't know what gravity is yet we use it to explain so much? I think morality is in a similar position... it's deeply ingrained in our everyday judgments and our overall outlook of life, yet we don't really understand it.

    The difference here is that gravity is undoubtedly a physical construct and not a human one, one that exists whether we care or not.

    Also, do you consider terms like unfair, unjust, cruel, etc. to be synonymous with bad?
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