[INFJ] Dear INFJ Gentlemen, you are NOT ESTPs... So quit acting like it!

[Billy]

Not at all!

Just quite possibly the most obnoxious NFJ on the face of the earth.

I don't think her info is very objective, and she's kind of sketch in general...she told this guy on Personality Cafe not to tell anyone he was ISFP because of the way he'd be perceived.

Wait wait, you are talking about objectivity? Hahahahahaa

 

[Billy]

This is reminiscent of an INFJ male friend of mine. He often seems to have a very split personality. He's bisexual as well, and often seems to feel uncertain in whether to play out his feminine or masculine side. If it's just me and him, he can very easily fit in as one of the girls. But throw in one of our other male friends into the mix, and suddenly it's a cocky, militant version of him. I recall him talking about wanting to act like an ass to girls just for the sure sake of it, for power, for the upper hand, and because he believes people respect it more. I do often think that he sees himself as a social outcast. At times, I feel on edge around him because I don't know if he's playing nice or being deceitful. I'm a bit of a paranoid kind of person, and he can make me feel paranoid at times. I only really link INFJ's with having that true ability of weilding the double edged sword.

Very interesting. I dont think bisexuality has anything to do with it, but I definitely believe that internally where I live in my mind I am nether male nor female, thats just window dressing I use depending on the company I am with. I am actually pretty androgynous, I think that is a Ni thing, someone else mentioned how INFJs adapt to their surroundings, I also agree with that, put me with a group of women and I will be sensitive etc, put me with a group of carpenters from Brooklyn and I will act like a douche from the movie goodfellas. Its not that those are fake versions of me, just different aspects of who I am and depending on who I am with it comes out.

 

[Riva]

What type is billy? And why does he get so pissed when he is called an INTJ?

Why doesn't anyone like INTJs except Satine?

Who taught Marmie MBTI?

Most of the posts should be moved to either one of those threads.

 

[Billy]

What type is billy? And why does he get so pissed when he is called an INTJ?

Why doesn't anyone like INTJs except Satine?

Who taught Marmie MBTI?

Most of the posts should be moved to either one of those threads.

I'm INFJ and I dont get pissed when people call me an INTJ, I get annoyed when 1 person in particular calls me an INTJ because she doesn't do it for objective reasons she does it because she thinks it gets to me, it doesn't, I personally love INTJs and I wish I was Te based instead of Fe based my life would be 100X easier.

 

[Riva]

^ True that. The world is a much much easier place when one is a INTJ. Peer pressure doesn't mean shit (unless they do have a point) and decisions come easy, easier to INTJs than to any other type there is. And they are the most confident type. So I wouldn't disagree with you when you say your life would be easier if you're an INTJ. And mind you they are also the most successful. I'm yet to see an unsuccessful INTJ.

But the rest of the world would think you're weird. But if you're a INTJ, you wouldn't notice .

And Marmie's typing isn't the best. So if she thinks you're an INTJ, you're probably a ESFP.

 

[Halla74]

The best thing ANYONE (male or female) can do on ANY DATE (first, second, third, etc.) is BE THEMSELVES.

There is always a certain amount of "nervous" or "giddy" energy surrounding a first date, because once is excited at the prospect of finding a new person to love and be loved by.

BUT - in no way shape or form is that prospect served by pretending to be something you are not.

For instance, I might be a full blown ESTP, and a loon, and a bit zany, but those are just brief moments in time where those aspects of my personality are interjected throughout my day to keep things light and fun, instead of drab and boring.

Far beyond being a comedian and a silly fellow, I am a gentleman, I am a romantic, I am an optimist, and I am a big believer that chivalry and courtship still exist although in terms more appropriate for the times we live in than when men draped their cloaks over mud puddles for ladies to walk over.

Guys, regardless of your MBTI type, let me give some advice for a first date with a woman you have a strong interest in:

(1) Bring flowers!
(2) Dress well, but leave the tuxedo at home.
(3) Go easy on the cologne, or skip it, just be clean, and well groomed, no Mafia hair gel.
(4) Get your damn car cleaned, if not detailed beofre the date.
(5) Open the door for her and let her get seated comfortably in your car, once she appears to be comfortable, make eye contact, smile, and close the door for her.
(6) Get in the car, don't blast the fucking stereo. Either keep it off and talk to her, or keep it at a volume low enough that you can converse with her. Focus on her, and not the 1,800 watt sound system.
(7) Wherever you are going, be sure to open the door for her to let her out of the car, and shut it for her.
(8) Open the door for her to wherever you are going (let's say a nice restaurant in this example) and then follow her in.
(9) Hopefully you made reservations, or got there early, if you did not, don't be a fool and sit outside on a metal bench with a pger-coaster that alerts you when your table is ready. Go buy her a drink and/or an appetizer at the bar if she's hungry.
(10) During dinner remember the following: You have TWO EARS and ONE MOUTH, so LISTEN TWICE as much as you SPEAK. Learn about her, don't be a bloody fool and stampede all over the conversation about your whole life. Communication is a TWO WAY endeavor.
(11) If she's cool with it, pay the tab, especially if you asked her out. YOU ASKED, so YOU PAY. If she wants to go Dutch, then don't argue with her, you will lose. ;-)
(12) If you do the above, smile, and be yourself, you will most likely have a very succcessful first date, regardless of your MBTI type.
(13) When it's time to take her home, it's your job to figure out when to kiss her goodnight. If she doesn't want to kiss you, you'll know, but you'll still likely get a hug, unless you creeped her out somewhere during the date. Where it all goes from there is up to you. If you have an interest in a woman, pursue her, but do so like a gentleman, and not like a creep or a stalker.
(14) Remember, even if the whole endeavor fails, you got two very important things out of it: (A) You will have learned a few things, and (B) You'll never have to look back on your life and have regrets "What if I did ask her out that summer?" will not be a question you ponder on alone in a nursing home. Instead, you might be holding the hand of the love of your life on a beach sipping Mai Thai's together on your 80th birthdays. I know which option I'd rather have as part of my life...

MBTI + DATING = FAIL
DATING + ROMANCE = WIN!!!



-Halla

 

[Billy]

^ True that. The world is a much much easier place when one is a INTJ. Peer pressure doesn't mean shit (unless they do have a point) and decisions come easy, easier to INTJs than to any other type there is. And they are the most confident type. So I wouldn't disagree with you when you say your life would be easier if you're an INTJ. And mind you they are also the most successful. I'm yet to see an unsuccessful INTJ.

But the rest of the world would think you're weird. But if you're a INTJ, you wouldn't notice .

I have a lot of respect the way they use Te, like moving pawns around the chessboard, only instead of only using people like I tend to do and INFJs tend to do they utilize resources and assets, they always have some backup plan and some funding squirreled away somewhere, I tend to just rely on people I know who I know can help, but thats not as effective because I have to dump a TON of personal time and resources into maintaining all that and then sometimes they just dont want to help... leaving me frustrated and feeling betrayed.

 

[cascadeco]

I have a lot of respect the way they use Te, like moving pawns around the chessboard, only instead of only using people like I tend to do and INFJs tend to do they utilize resources and assets, they always have some backup plan and some funding squirreled away somewhere, I tend to just rely on people I know who I know can help, but thats not as effective because I have to dump a TON of personal time and resources into maintaining all that and then sometimes they just dont want to help... leaving me frustrated and feeling betrayed.

Well, and I tend to have backup plans and my own funding / self-sufficiency, and tend not to rely on people, but I believe myself to have an Fe preference over Te preference. In my case, I think a lot of my own tendencies are the result of enneagram (e5 sp) in conjunction with infj. I think enneagram (as well as other aspects of personality; after all, mbti is only one construct) plays a big role in the 'flavor' of mbti type one falls into. This is all to say... INFJ's as well as any other type can vary quite a bit, esp. behaviorally, based on many other factors.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Very interesting. I dont think bisexuality has anything to do with it, but I definitely believe that internally where I live in my mind I am nether male nor female, thats just window dressing I use depending on the company I am with. I am actually pretty androgynous, I think that is a Ni thing, someone else mentioned how INFJs adapt to their surroundings, I also agree with that, put me with a group of women and I will be sensitive etc, put me with a group of carpenters from Brooklyn and I will act like a douche from the movie goodfellas. Its not that those are fake versions of me, just different aspects of who I am and depending on who I am with it comes out.

You know, I had always seen him as being a more androgynous person, and wondered if bisexuality developed due to this. I've also wondered if bisexuality was more prevalent amongst NF's than any other type. My experience with NF's has shown that they are generally more comfortable with "taboo" than most. ENFP's and INFJ's especially.

I'm moving away from topic though. I don't know about the ESTP shadow, necessarily. But perhaps more confusion with gender role, audience, and desire for respect can make the INFJ male I know go from sweet as a kitten best buddy to mean, gun toting, fire spitter. I still love the kid and will always be there to support him as I know he generally means well. But I can't always be around him.

 

[EJCC]

I'm INFJ and I dont get pissed when people call me an INTJ, I get annoyed when 1 person in particular calls me an INTJ because she doesn't do it for objective reasons she does it because she thinks it gets to me, it doesn't, I personally love INTJs and I wish I was Te based instead of Fe based my life would be 100X easier.

Okay, you've got me convinced that you're INFJ. I've been observing your debate with her for a little while and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Marm does not try to "get to" people. Maybe I'm reading her wrong, but I feel like I know her pretty well and can safely say that she doesn't have ulterior motives. Like anyone with strong and communicative Te, she is blunt and honest and not the sort of person to even consider messing with people's heads. Te/Fi and manipulation, from my experience, don't usually go together.

Speaking as someone who is friends with many, many INFJs, I know that they have a tendency to over-analyze some people, when they should be taken at face value. That's why I love INFJs, is that we consider very different things to be "obvious" and are therefore great sources of advice to each other. And one thing that I eternally have to convince my INFJ friends of, is the fact that no, these people aren't out to get them.

When Marm thought she was INFJ, everyone who knew anything about MBTI on this forum knew she was wrong, because of her Fi/Te. Whatever type she is, she is an F and she has Fi and Te x1,000. So don't assume that she's using unhealthy-Fe tactics, because she isn't -- just like I wouldn't, or any number of other people similar to Marm (e.g. shortnsweet, Little Linguist) wouldn't.

So please, let's all calm down and take the issue at surface value.

 

[Jaguar]

Far beyond being a comedian and a silly fellow, I am a gentleman, I am a romantic, I am an optimist, and I am a big believer that chivalry and courtship still exist

Dig that, brother Alex.

 

[EJCC]

Two more things:
1) I'm still not sure about INFJs acting like ESTPs, just because I know so many INFJs and yet I still haven't seen it in action before, but I agree with everyone who's been saying that INFJs can have very Se hobbies. Most of the INFJs I know absolutely love outdoor activities -- hiking, cycling, skiing -- and they love it for the sights, sounds, and smells of the great outdoors. My INFJ mom is always trying to take me birdwatching but my Se is not nearly developed enough to allow me to appreciate birds for as lengthy a period of time as she can.

2) [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], your post was perfect.
EDIT:

Dig that, brother Alex.

Exactly!

 

[Jaguar]

Who taught Marmie MBTI?

Helen Keller.

 

[cascadeco]

Most of the INFJs I know absolutely love outdoor activities -- hiking, cycling, skiing -- and they love it for the sights, sounds, and smells of the great outdoors. My INFJ mom is always trying to take me birdwatching but my Se is not nearly developed enough to allow me to appreciate birds for as lengthy a period of time as she can.

To the bolded - funny! I started birdwatching when I was a wee lass in 5th grade.

And yeah, I have two INFJ friends who are both very much into the outdoors; one has done all sorts of hiking/traveling around the world (her interests are more in allignment with mine), and the other does that to a lesser extent but instead is much more into snowboarding and also super into triathlons (even Ironmans... good lord), marathons, long-distance biking...and all of us actively climb or have been interested in rock-climbing in the past (and believe me, they're both definitively INFJ's)

I think too with infj's there's a strong goal-oriented/accomplishment streak with some hobbies (i.e. the more solo-sport-related ones)... it's sort of pushing ourselves to the limit and achieving it - the act of physically accomplishing something and also physically improving against ourselves.

 

[A window to the soul]

Two more things:
1) I'm still not sure about INFJs acting like ESTPs, just because I know so many INFJs and yet I still haven't seen it in action before, but I agree with everyone who's been saying that INFJs can have very Se hobbies. Most of the INFJs I know absolutely love outdoor activities -- hiking, cycling, skiing -- and they love it for the sights, sounds, and smells of the great outdoors. My INFJ mom is always trying to take me birdwatching but my Se is not nearly developed enough to allow me to appreciate birds for as lengthy a period of time as she can.

I've never seen it. My brother-in-law is hardcore ESTP. My sister and Mom are hardcore INFJ's. ESTP and INFJ are distinctly different. My sister loves animals, but I wouldn't say she's outdoorsy. I have a hard time dragging any of the NF's I know outside for longer than 30mins, if it means breaking out a sweat or getting dirty. Not even in the name of teamwork and helping out a sis. As for my brother-in-law, now that's a different story. He's the man! No sooner do I throw out an idea, and he's firing up a chainsaw.

 

[PuddleRiver]

*flees rollercoaster like scared bunny who hatez rollercoasters*

You and me both, sister!

 

[EJCC]

To the bolded - funny! I started birdwatching when I was a wee lass in 5th grade.

Good for you! Birdwatching is one of those things that I wish I could like, but I just don't know if I'm capable of it. (My mom and I make fun of each other all the time, when we talk about it. )

And yeah, I have two INFJ friends who are both very much into the outdoors; one has done all sorts of hiking/traveling around the world (her interests are more in allignment with mine), and the other does that to a lesser extent but instead is much more into snowboarding and also super into triathlons (even Ironmans... good lord), marathons, long-distance biking...and all of us actively climb or have been interested in rock-climbing in the past (and believe me, they're both definitively INFJ's)

I think too with infj's there's a strong goal-oriented/accomplishment streak with some hobbies (i.e. the more solo-sport-related ones)... it's sort of pushing ourselves to the limit and achieving it - the act of physically accomplishing something and also physically improving against ourselves.

Interesting! I really see that with the INFJs I know. Thank you for enlightening me! In the back of my mind, I always wonder why so many of my INFJs push themselves to the point that they seem miserable and vent at me all the time. But I guess they just don't tell me how rewarding it is to them, to have things finished.

My INFJ mom and my INFJ work study boss are both artists (one a musician, one a costume designer), and they are more stressed out by deadlines than anyone I know. Maybe it's their version of that sensory thrill you were talking about?

I've never seen it. My brother-in-law is hardcore ESTP. My sister and Mom are hardcore INFJ's. ESTP and INFJ are distinctly different. My sister loves animals, but I wouldn't say she's outdoorsy. I have a hard time dragging any of the NF's I know outside for longer than 30mins, if it means breaking out a sweat or getting dirty. Not even in the name of teamwork and helping out a sis. As for my brother-in-law, now that's a different story. He's the man! No sooner do I throw out an idea, and he's firing up a chainsaw.

It's interesting -- I wouldn't say that the INFJs I know are very adventurous, either, or very willing to get out of their comfort zones. But I guess, since I grew up very close to nature (literally, not metaphorically), outdoorsy activities ended up in my INFJs' comfort zones early on.

And your brother-in-law sounds awesome.

 

[A window to the soul]

To put things in the proper context, I live in a *very* hot and humid part of the country, so I can't say I blame the person that doesn't want to do outdoor activities, if it doesn't interest them. ENTP's we're energized by people, ideas and we sometimes need people to help us execute a project plan much greater than ourselves. I've found that the male ESTP is willing to do what the female IxFx isn't, under extreme conditions. Sometimes it's necessary to throw in some cash to get an IxFx to let go of fears, or put a smile on their face and acquire a "let's do this" attitude. Money talks! To maximize their 'can do' attitudes, I've learned to pay the NFJ's up front and the SFP's afterwards. I've never had to bribe an ESTP and greater is the reward to a friend like that. So much stereotyping, I know.

 

[iwakar]

I can't speak for male INFJs (cause I've only knowingly met one briefly on two occasions and he was inebriated on the second --take from that what you will) and I've only met two other female INFJs irl from this forum.

I know that for myself I am definitely capable of operating in ESTP mode. It used to be a strictly negative cycle where I was destressing and self-destructing. It's taken about a decade to eliminate the self-destructing part and just learn to go with the flow and enjoy these experiences as a mode of unwinding rather than nosediving the ride into an 'out of control spiral.' I've learned to pull back sooner once the steam is out of my system and return to my more comfortable state. I also find with time that I can engage in this behavior more seamlessly, more comfortably, and more frequently before my stress reaches fever pitch. It's not hard to imagine that an INFJ male would be inclined to develop this side of himself earlier than females due to obvious societal pressures.

I just question the frequency of 1) the op's number of friends turning up INFJ and 2) the number of them lapsing into ESTP mode and 3) the frequency with which they appear to be lapsing into ESTP mode and 4) the frequency with which they engage this side of themselves in a completely obnoxious and self-destructive manner. I don't question any of the above as being possible, it's the rate of occurrence on all counts that I'm skeptical of.

 

[cascadeco]

Interesting! I really see that with the INFJs I know. Thank you for enlightening me! In the back of my mind, I always wonder why so many of my INFJs push themselves to the point that they seem miserable and vent at me all the time. But I guess they just don't tell me how rewarding it is to them, to have things finished.

Yeah, I really do think a lot of it is accomplishment-driven, and gaining a lot of satisfaction out of 'proving' that we can do it - not to others, but to ourselves. And it may too be tied to the fact that it probably isn't our 'baseline' personality.. we're not like that the majority of the time. However it IS still an important piece of us imo, so again I don't really buy into the whole contriving/wannabe element as being a driving force.

(my most recent blog entry may be of interest to you as it's totally on this topic - and, I'll add, my INTJ boyfriend is exactly the same when it comes to this - but they're identical to us in this manner because obviously they too have inferior Se).

Edit: but to your sensory point, absolutely that's another element of nature for me. Just letting go and being attuned to the here-and-now. Not to mention some of my strongest values revolve around nature.

My INFJ mom and my INFJ work study boss are both artists (one a musician, one a costume designer), and they are more stressed out by deadlines than anyone I know. Maybe it's their version of that sensory thrill you were talking about?

Hmm... I'll say I pay attention to deadlines and am never late, so deadlines are 'important' in that sense to me; not sure that I'm overly stressed about them though, but that's probably because I'm pretty proactive and try to be preventative such that I don't get to the point of stress in the first place. Sometimes that can't be helped, though, and at those times while totally stressed, I can sometimes perform better as a result. Not always though.

Funny.. another thing in common w/ your mom! Another hobby of mine is watercolor painting, although it's kind of fallen by the wayside in recent months due to my being busy with other things.