[MBTI General] People telling you that you feel worse than you actually do...sigh

[Randomnity]

What do you guys think about all this? Any similar experiences?

Not exactly the same, but a lot of people think I'm being negative when to me I'm just listing things off objectively. I guess it is easier for me to see the negatives than the positives, but I don't feel depressed about it or whatever people seem to think.

I'm told by 2 friends that I'm annoying to watch movies with because I'm "so negative". This drives me crazy because I feel like I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless it's a positive one. Note: this is not me endlessly complaining or talking during the movie or anything. It's literally:

Person: what did you think of the movie?
Me: Oh it was ok/pretty good/a little cheesy but ok/pretty funny. I didn't really like the X but the Y were good. (or if I hated the movie, which is pretty rare, maybe every 15-20 movies I see: well it was kinda lame, I thought the X was silly and the Y was not believable. what did you think?)
Person: WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE ALL THE TIME I hate seeing movies with you.
Me:

Especially since most of the time I wasn't really all that excited about the movie in the first place since it looked bad but was convinced to go see it. (looking at you, hot tub time machine )

I'm guessing it's either my phrasing or those 2 people are just way too sensitive or something.

 

[SilkRoad]

Not exactly the same, but a lot of people think I'm being negative when to me I'm just listing things off objectively. I guess it is easier for me to see the negatives than the positives, but I don't feel depressed about it or whatever people seem to think.

I'm told by 2 friends that I'm annoying to watch movies with because I'm "so negative". This drives me crazy because I feel like I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless it's a positive one. Note: this is not me endlessly complaining or talking during the movie or anything. It's literally:

Person: what did you think of the movie?
Me: Oh it was ok/pretty good/a little cheesy but ok/pretty funny. I didn't really like the X but the Y were good. (or if I hated the movie, which is pretty rare, maybe every 15-20 movies I see: well it was kinda lame, I thought the X was silly and the Y was not believable. what did you think?)
Person: WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE ALL THE TIME I hate seeing movies with you.
Me:

Especially since most of the time I wasn't really all that excited about the movie in the first place since it looked bad but was convinced to go see it. (looking at you, hot tub time machine )

I'm guessing it's either my phrasing or those 2 people are just way too sensitive or something.

Wow, that could get really annoying. I also think of myself as a realist with a slight tendency to look on the dark side, but that's about it. But why ask for an opinion about a movie and then tell you how negative you are? I guess there really is a reason why I often like going to movies alone.

Btw... Hot Tub Time Machine?

I don't feel that refusing to acknowledge that life can have its less positive points is a weakness. As others have said, I think it's more realistic and commendable to acknowledge the dark side, and to work to overcome its negative aspect on your life. But if you have to shut down every remotely negative thing another person says to you, or turn it back on them to make it look like the problem is all theirs...it doesn't ring true.


EDIT: Ok, I just looked up Hot Tub Time Machine. I don't think this made it over here to the UK. Perhaps just as well

 

[Santosha]

I think that perspective can also sometimes be a coping mechanism for people who have underlying depression or a hard time dealing with shit in their lives so they need to downplay the bad things in life. In a sense, they don't want to "deal" with your problems because it destroys the illusion that "life is perfect". My ENFP 8w7 sis is not like that.

THis. Totally this. It is my opinion that when people push something, anything, (in this case positivity) to the point that they are close to breaking with reality, it is because of a great internal fear or weakness of the opposite. I do it myself (as mentioned with alochol and drugs).. I have a great fear of people spriraling out of control, and tend to become quite nazi-ish when people drink to much or develop reliance of anykind. I'm not proud of it, but consider it the lesser of two evils.

ENFP's are also big on assumptions and hyperbole. I don't think I'm that bad and maybe its because I am very balanced on I/E. I told my ENFP friend once about some relationship problems, only to have him blow it out of proportion and make me feel really, really bad. The worst thing about this is that being an E4, our defense mechanism is to often believe anything someone tells us about ourselves, so it takes me tremendous effort to objectively work through what is true and what is not. Needless to say, I don't trust him with any of my personal info anylonger.

THen there is always the high-horse stand. INFJ's can do this, but I actually think ENFP's do it more often. We like to inspire, we like to share whatever brilliant new enlightenment we've found, but sometimes the way we do it really comes across on being on a pedastol. And the intention of this can indeed go either way. We can do it unknowlingly with no ill intent, or we can do it because deep down somewhere it makes us feel like we've got one up on someone, which ofcourse is a terribley shitty thing.

I woulndn't let these behaviors bother you so much. See them for what they are. Understand that YOUR not a negative, isolated, sad and lonely person, you know yourself better than anyone, and that your friend seems to have issues she is projecting on you. Realize your limits with her. Understand her nature. I wouldn't try calling her up and telling her how she made you feel because I doubt you'd get very far. These behaviors can be very deep-rooted and entangled in us, and its not your place to be her counselor. Your her friend. And good friendships mean that we can share our fears, our insecurities, our failings, along with all the good stuff too, and we won't be judged. We will be loved and accepted AS IS.

 

[SilkRoad]

Thanks Huxley, your perspective is much appreciated. Among other issues that are probably involved here, I think Ne-Fi is kind of confusing for me. When we reconnected I was aware that communication pitfalls were something to watch out for in this friendship. I think partly I sound...well, rather freaked out and highly irritated because it feels a bit like deja vu again, it's kind of why we fell out in the past.

I do care about this girl, and I prefer to think she wishes me well. As you say, knowing your limits with a person is important and in some cases not having too much proximity can smooth things a bit.

 

[PeaceBaby]

You are sharing your venting, just to vent, or perhaps to even hear whether you are justified in feeling how you feel. She hears your venting though and is trying to problem-solve the negative emotions for you. It seems, for her, the solution to it at this point in her life is to try to spin everything over to the positive. So, while I wouldn't say she is projecting onto you, I would say she is perhaps guilty of projecting her solution onto you.

To her perhaps, you appear to be complaining and not doing anything to fix what you are complaining about. You're Fe'ing, she's Te'ing, each in your particular fashion.

TO discourage this: simply say, "Thanks, I appreciate you looking at the bright side." Give her a hug. I imagine you retreat, perhaps with some annoyance, when she answers you in a way you dislike, which will amplify her "look at the bright side" responses. Defuse them by acknowledgement.

 

[Tallulah]

I have known a few people like that, and it's hard for me to keep them in my life, because if you're my friend and you're not trying to understand where I'm ACTUALLY coming from, but rather projecting your own ideas onto me, I can't really see you as someone who's close to me. I've also known a few people in leadership positions that didn't want to acknowledge possible problems because they saw it as negativity, rather than troubleshooting...needless to say, those are the most frustrating people to work for, ever. What they don't realize is that they are causing negative feelings in others through their refusal to acknowledge anything that's not "positive." So other people have to work around them, making things harder than they need to be.

If I was going to hang around your friend, I'd have to sit her down and tell her, "I understand you like to think positively, but you're assigning negative emotions/vibes/whatever to me when I don't feel negative. We simply have a different perspective, and if you are going to hear everything that comes out of my mouth as "negativity," we may have to limit our contact, because I'm not enjoying the dynamic we have now." It's like trying to go down a road and having someone put up a barrier in the middle of the road, then trying to go down another, only to find the same thing. She can't enforce her worldview on you; you just have to decide if she's worth putting up with. For me, it would just be indicative that she fundamentally doesn't understand who I am, and isn't trying to.

 

[mmhmm]

every time I said "oh, I worry about so and so" or "It annoys me when people do this", she'd be like "Why? Why let it annoy you? Why should you worry about them? I don't give people like that space in my head any more." It was like she had to call me on EVERYTHING of that nature that I said. I realise the need to protect myself and to avoid excessive negativity, I've seen the value of that increasingly this year. But honestly, don't try to convince me I'm in a worse place than I am...I know myself the best.

i'm very much like your friend.
but your perception of her motivations
and my motivations are quite different.

it's never about thinking that the person
i'm talking to is in a worse place--to tell
people how they feel is never my intention.
not my thing.

i have to using my own stories--it's how
i relate back about how i would have
dealt with said issues. it's more of a 'hey,
this is my perspective'. because i'm
totally not out to fix the person i'm
talking to, but i can't just listen, without
offering (it's how i work out my thoughts
--outloud), if it's just just general
complaining/worrying stuff without any
plan of action i get disinterested really
fast. dwelling and stating things without
doing something about it does not sit well
with me because i think it's a waste of time.

i'm a better resource to bounce ideas and
plans on what to diffuse the situation.

and if i'm going to dwell and linger, it better
be something good or interesting. like laying
in bed reading with the hotness that is jock.

Ahhh...from what you describe I think she's definitely an ENFP...and I am imagining an ENFP 8w7 as she sounds exactly like my ENFP 8w7 friend. It drives me insane SilkRoad. (gosh...I can't even tell you how familiar your story is to me).

The friend I am referring to has so many amazing qualities...and is a positive influence on my life...but I have had to train myself NOT to bring up anything...oh sad, depressing, upsetting, etc. And when I am actually experiencing those kind of feelings myself...I stay away from her.

i'm enfp 8w7, and to the bolded, hahaha.
my girl friends are very much like that with
me, because i don't coddle.

i'm very in the mindframe, if you have a
problem and you want to fix it: sure.
but if you have problems and just want
to wallow wallow wallow: pass.

i'm very optimistic and somewhat cheerful
all the time, and it's not because i run from
my problems (also why i'm not e7) but i deal
with it right away. i squash it, and don't let
them fester. i never deny my feelings, but i'm
not going to sit and feel poo poo because my
friends don't listen to me or talk to me the way
i want them to (or whatever general interpersonal
misunderstanding).

and i try to put a lot of things in perspective.

and also... when i find myself having problems,
reaching out is not what i naturally do. i prefer
to deal with it on my own because it's way more
efficient. so i'm not really the best person to take
your troubles to in a lot of cases.

and i have a very, very hard time listening to
people who can't get over themselves. makes me
look for the nearest exit.

 

[SilkRoad]

^I hear you to a certain extent; it's just a different perspective from mine. But I wasn't venting...I should make that clear. (I did that in the past and that led us to a very frustrating place.) She'd actually ask me about people in my life who I'd distanced myself from because they were something of a negative influence (some of them are mutual acquaintances, etc), and when I described that, it came back to a sort of "oh well obviously this is getting to you." Er no, it's not getting to me now - it got to me in the past, and I already did something to change that. But it seems she read all of that as being part of my current problems/mindset. I just really had the impression that she wanted to steer the conversation round to things I found difficult or negative - so she could then shut them down or tell me that obviously I felt terrible about my life. I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid, but that's how it came across.

Admittedly I do know that I can be a bit of a dweller, if not wallower - I can get really stuck on something that's causing me pain. But I was aware from the outset of this visit that this friend doesn't sympathize with that, and anyway it's something I'm trying to do less because it's not good for me. So I tried not to ramble on about problems, and to tell her about the things that were going well for me, and one of the things I did appreciate was that she offered some practical suggestions for dealing with some situations. But there was a lot of "why would you let such a negative thought cross your mind?" IT JUST HAPPENS BECAUSE SOME THINGS ABOUT LIFE SUCK. Besides, to me, refusing to acknowledge any darkness or negativity is not "fixing the problem". It's running away from it. And it can be particularly frustrating if you feel like you're simply talking about the ups and downs of life with a friend, without asking them to fix things, and not even feeling particularly negative about things - just being real about what life is like - and they feel obliged to shut anything down if it's remotely negative.

It's certainly not a dynamic I've had with others, or very seldom. It's really quite specific to this person and so I am kind of thinking that it has more to do with her issues, beyond type, than anything else - just filtered through type, like anything. I do appreciate everyone's comments though, there is food for thought here. I just think that with some people you can care about each other but you have to realise that each of you may have issues which have nothing to do with the other person, but which affect your communication - and that your communication styles are very different and you may need to weigh up how much effort and investment you're going to put into bridging the gap.


EDIT: I have to say it is VERY interesting how different all the perspectives were on this thread. Because everyone said something useful and valid about the dynamic, the person's motivations etc, but the perspectives were wide-ranging.

 

[Starry]

i'm enfp 8w7, and to the bolded, hahaha.
my girl friends are very much like that with
me, because i don't coddle.

i'm very in the mindframe, if you have a
problem and you want to fix it: sure.
but if you have problems and just want
to wallow wallow wallow: pass.

i'm very optimistic and somewhat cheerful
all the time, and it's not because i run from
my problems (also why i'm not e7) but i deal
with it right away. i squash it, and don't let
them fester. i never deny my feelings, but i'm
not going to sit and feel poo poo because my
friends don't listen to me or talk to me the way
i want them to (or whatever general interpersonal
misunderstanding).

and i try to put a lot of things in perspective.

and also... when i find myself having problems,
reaching out is not what i naturally do. i prefer
to deal with it on my own because it's way more
efficient. so i'm not really the best person to take
your troubles to in a lot of cases.

and i have a very, very hard time listening to
people who can't get over themselves. makes me
look for the nearest exit.

You sound SOOOOOooo much like my irl ENFP 8w7 friend it is a little spooky to me!!! LOL. I love that. How you can come to this site and interact with an individual that is the same gender...MBTI...and e-type...as someone in your real life...and really pick-up on their same vibe/personality/life philosophy coming-through... Not always...but I sometimes wonder if anyone else has had this experience... ((like CzeCze reminds me so much of the ENFP 7w6 friend I referred to in this thread)).

I have A LOT of respect for how my ENFP 8w7 lives her life. And it is exactly what you describe. No wallowing. Problem-solving...being on a forward moving basis without regret. Surrounding herself with positive people and insisting on positive experiences. Not wasting time with any kind of self-pity...or on things she cannot change...but making the best of life in each moment...

BUT...what I don't pick up on you mmhmm...either because you don't experience this or I just don't see it in you because I don't know you well enough...is that my friend is not totally in control of her anger. I mean...NOT like she is exploding in anger around me or other people (I couldn't handle that)...but there is a frustration there...right below the surface...that makes me suspect her life-system isn't working in its entirety - if that makes sense. And the thing that struggle with...is that it is her-way-or-the-highway. Like I could relate so well to SilkRoad's statement 'I'm not her'. Like...I must adhere to her 'WE STAY POSITIVE ALWAYS' standard...while my way to experience life is dismissed. It is difficult to explain.

What I couldn't figure out though from SilkRoad's subsequent messages was whether or not her ENFP was 8w7 or 7w6. Because my 'advice' would be actually be different in both cases. In all honesty...if she was 8w7...I would say...'Yup...sorry SilkRoad...you are just going to have to deal.' Because I can't talk to my 8w7 friend about this. She MUST figure out everything on her own...and if I am to hang-out with her...I just need to curb my behavior (this is not a 'bad' thing in my mind...it is just how it is). But I'm thinking if SilkRoad's ENFP was 7w6 there may be some 'wiggle-room'. It has been my experience that my 7w6 ENFPs are more 'accomodating' (if you can get them to focus/understand the issue you are having) than my 8w7 friend.

I can't figure out if SilkRoad's ENFP is adopting this philosophy because she actually believes it (which would be more 8w7 to me)...or if it is because she is profoundly fearful (7w6) and looking for a quick-fix. Something started to make me think SilkRoad's ENFP is scared. And yes...projecting her 'new life philosophy' on her...in an almost 'panicked' way. Yet again...it is not even remotely unusual for an average ENFP to say these kind of *let's all be happy* things...merely to inspire...but not to the extent that SilkRoad describes. I actually don't know what to think. I doubt I'm even making sense anymore LOL.

 

[mmhmm]

BUT...what I don't pick up on you mmhmm...either because you don't experience this or I just don't see it in you because I don't know you well enough...is that my friend is not totally in control of her anger. I mean...NOT like she is exploding in anger around me or other people (I couldn't handle that)...but there is a frustration there...right below the surface...that makes me suspect her life-system isn't working in its entirety - if that makes sense. And the thing that struggle with...is that it is her-way-or-the-highway. Like I could relate so well to SilkRoad's statement 'I'm not her'. Like...I must adhere to her 'WE STAY POSITIVE ALWAYS' standard...while my way to experience life is dismissed. It is difficult to explain.

hahaha i totally understand. completely.
you describe me quite well! the right below
the surface bit - that's exactly me. it's always
bubbling underneath me, but that's the very
thing that gets me to squash stuff right away
you know? but it doesn't necessarily mean
my life is out of whack, it's more like how i work.

"my way or the highway" hahaha! yes, yes! guilty too.
and much more so when i was younger, because i
always thought i was right (ie. judging people hehehe:
i'll get 'vibes' about people, pass a judgement, and
everybody around me thinks i'm just being too
judgmental [i am]--but then sometimes after
a while they will see my viewpoint even though they
may have rejected it initially.) and i'm never hesitant
to say 'i told you so' no matter how long it's been.
people flipflop all the time thus the love for possibilities.

hahahah i know i can be such a dick sometimes.
but it's kinda funny for me you know? especially
now, because i can take it more in a lighthearted
way, and i think this has to do a lot with growing
up and appreciating differences and become more
aware of my own strengths and weaknesses,
limitations, tolerance of certain things. stuff like that.

but it's just more because i've always known what i want,
even as a kid (i hate being refused), and when you're young,
i didn't really quite understand yet the about the complexities
of different personalities (still don't) let alone my own self?
(oh boy i'm always having belief bubbles bursting all around
me you know? pop pop pop. eyes wider everyday). so it also
might be an age / maturity thing too?

(still not to my point yet) (see? have to work out my thoughts
and i get carried away by going off on tangents: and a lot of
times people take it as i dismiss what they say... but i can't help
it) (seeeee?!!!) have to work it outloud: so i just end up talking
about myself. so that sometimes comes across as my way or
the highway. but i try to work on it.

What I couldn't figure out though from SilkRoad's subsequent messages was whether or not her ENFP was 8w7 or 7w6. Because my 'advice' would be actually be different in both cases. In all honesty...if she was 8w7...I would say...'Yup...sorry SilkRoad...you are just going to have to deal.' Because I can't talk to my 8w7 friend about this. She MUST figure out everything on her own...and if I am to hang-out with her...I just need to curb my behavior (this is not a 'bad' thing in my mind...it is just how it is). But I'm thinking if SilkRoad's ENFP was 7w6 there may be some 'wiggle-room'. It has been my experience that my 7w6 ENFPs are more 'accomodating' (if you can get them to focus/understand the issue you are having) than my 8w7 friend.

I can't figure out if SilkRoad's ENFP is adopting this philosophy because she actually believes it (which would be more 8w7 to me)...or if it is because she is profoundly fearful (7w6) and looking for a quick-fix. Something started to make me think SilkRoad's ENFP is scared. And yes...projecting her 'new life philosophy' on her...in an almost 'panicked' way. Yet again...it is not even remotely unusual for an average ENFP to say these kind of *let's all be happy* things...merely to inspire...but not to the extent that SilkRoad describes. I actually don't know what to think. I doubt I'm even making sense anymore LOL.

to the bolded, yes. for me, i think it's a combination
of having been disappointed in the past and experience
that's led me to truly believe that the only person i can
depend on is myself. this doesn't mean that i want to reject
helping hands but i know how a lot of times things will play
out. if anything, i'd love take a break for once. you know?
to really really take up on that extended helping hand. i've
tried before, and that's what a lot of times have led to
disappointment. so it's just better if i take care of it.
but not because i reject the entire notion of being
disappointed--because i mean, people get disappointed,
but if i can counter any unnecessary disappointment,
why not right?

i have no idea if i even answered your points. hahahha.

 

[Starry]

i have no idea if i even answered your points. hahahha.

NO YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I really appreciate it. More than you know.

I can't really talk to my ENFP 8w7 friend like I would with others in my life. If I asked her questions like...'Why are you like this or that...?' there is no doubt in my mind she would become annoyed. But everything you said...it is what I have put together in my mind...and it is so nice to know that I am probably seeing things correctly with regards to her.

She is an amazing person. I am totally blown-out-of-the-water by how strong she is. How she actually gets things done as opposed to...oh say...'sitting around and day-dreaming about getting things done'. She is NOT the easiest person to get along with...but that is of little concern for me. Especially in light of all she brings into my life. She is hands-down one of the most giving/generous people I will ever come across. She is brilliant and just 'gets-things' so quickly...(I call this her 'witch powers' LOL)...and forces me & others to go outside of our comfort-zones and to do things that we would never consider doing...which oddly...always end up being positive experiences.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post here. It has been so helpful!!!

 

[SilkRoad]

What I couldn't figure out though from SilkRoad's subsequent messages was whether or not her ENFP was 8w7 or 7w6. Because my 'advice' would be actually be different in both cases. In all honesty...if she was 8w7...I would say...'Yup...sorry SilkRoad...you are just going to have to deal.' Because I can't talk to my 8w7 friend about this. She MUST figure out everything on her own...and if I am to hang-out with her...I just need to curb my behavior (this is not a 'bad' thing in my mind...it is just how it is). But I'm thinking if SilkRoad's ENFP was 7w6 there may be some 'wiggle-room'. It has been my experience that my 7w6 ENFPs are more 'accomodating' (if you can get them to focus/understand the issue you are having) than my 8w7 friend.

I can't figure out if SilkRoad's ENFP is adopting this philosophy because she actually believes it (which would be more 8w7 to me)...or if it is because she is profoundly fearful (7w6) and looking for a quick-fix. Something started to make me think SilkRoad's ENFP is scared. And yes...projecting her 'new life philosophy' on her...in an almost 'panicked' way. Yet again...it is not even remotely unusual for an average ENFP to say these kind of *let's all be happy* things...merely to inspire...but not to the extent that SilkRoad describes. I actually don't know what to think. I doubt I'm even making sense anymore LOL.

I am really not sure either - about what you said about whether she really believes it, or if she's fearful. I mean, she didn't come across as angry. And it wasn't like she PANICKED when I brought up something she considered negative. It was more...I guess I felt like there was a condescending tone. (She is a bit older than me too, about 5 years, but actually a lot of my good female friends - almost a majority! - are 4-5 years older, or in a few cases even several years more, and we have very equal friendships.) I mean, I am putting words in her mouth but it was almost a bit "why think about such nasty things, you silly little girl?" That was somewhat the vibe. And very much "oh, just be happy! Never think about the negative things others could bring into your life! Just don't have those people in your life at all anyway!" But then, it just took on a somewhat darker tone to me when she assumed from some things I've said that my life and my emotional health was worse than it really is. And I'm quite realistic about my own ups and downs and what's good and bad in my life at any given moment - so I know when people are making things out to be worse than they are.

I think I would have thought there was more "wiggle room", as you say, but I'm probably all freaked out because this kind of thing specifically caused us to fall out a few years ago. It was worse then, she was having more issues really, I was less mature and probably not handling things that well...etc. But although for the most part I enjoyed her visit, it was the cumulative effect of a lot of this shutting down, or even finding myself self-editing things which could be remotely construed as "negative" - and then getting this email...not that I was furious or anything, but I sort of thought "oh, not this again. Is that REALLY how I come across? But why is she the only person in my life who seems to take it that way?"

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's more scared, or a domineering belief that everyone should adopt this strategy. I really am more inclined to just step back a bit and not tell her much about it if I feel negative about things. It's a shame in a way because she does have positive things to offer, but I can feel my blood pressure going up over some of the misunderstandings.

 

[Thalassa]

I mean, if you've taken into account you might be overly negative or depressed or something, and you don't think that's the case here then...Your friend sounds annoying and like a fair-weather friend. Just know now that you can't say anything negative to her, that your friendship is now a very shallow one, that doesn't accept all angles and truths of your experience.

Save your complete honesty for other friends and keep her on the fringes. That's what I would do.

 

[SilkRoad]

I mean, if you've taken into account you might be overly negative or depressed or something, and you don't think that's the case here then...Your friend sounds annoying and like a fair-weather friend. Just know now that you can't say anything negative to her, that your friendship is now a very shallow one, that doesn't accept all angles and truths of your experience.

Save your complete honesty for other friends and keep her on the fringes. That's what I would do.

Yeah...I have had low times this year, but have inflicted very little of it on others - in fact, recent events with a few people have made me think it's better to work out a lot of stuff on my own (or on a forum such as this, hm!). Because people tend to misunderstand in various ways (not usually thinking I'm excessively negative...just different ways.) And I am feeling much better now...

And I think when someone gives you a perspective like that, it's worth sort of...sense checking it; do my other friends seem concerned that I'm constantly negative? Etc. And that's not the case. Ha, last year I got told that I was being annoyingly positive, by a few people. You can't win. Fortunately I do have friends who don't judge me like that either way.

I actually do think of myself as a realist. I insist on seeing the ten sides to every story. Unless I'm really mad at a person, or seriously seriouly wounded by a situation, I always have to balance out a positive statement with a less positive, just as a reality check; and among my friends I'm often the one who, when someone else says "oh...I can't stand xyz" will say "but you know, there are factors which kind of explain why people are like that."

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah...I have had low times this year, but have inflicted very little of it on others - in fact, recent events with a few people have made me think it's better to work out a lot of stuff on my own (or on a forum such as this, hm!). Because people tend to misunderstand in various ways (not usually thinking I'm excessively negative...just different ways.) And I am feeling much better now...

And I think when someone gives you a perspective like that, it's worth sort of...sense checking it; do my other friends seem concerned that I'm constantly negative? Etc. And that's not the case. Ha, last year I got told that I was being annoyingly positive, by a few people. You can't win.

I actually do think of myself as a realist. I insist on seeing the ten sides to every story. Unless I'm really mad at a person, or seriously seriouly wounded by a situation, I always have to balance out a positive statement with a less positive, just as a reality check; and among my friends I'm often the one who, when someone else says "oh...I can't stand xyz" will say "but you know, there are factors which kind of explain why people are like that."

Well there's a difference between ALWAYS being negative or unloading problems every time you talk to her, or being so negative that you're actually criticizing or abusing her in some way...and just being a normal person who has ups and downs and can see the good and bad in different situations.

If it was like "gosh you're always complaining about small things and never doing anything about it" then maybe she would have a point, if it was constant, and they were things that could be easily handled, not major life problems or things beyond your control. That would just be...real. As your friend, she would just be speaking honestly.

But never be negative, never speak of anything that's not positive...um, did we join a cult? Are we in the Stepford Wives now? Or do we simply have the sort of friendship where the only energy you want to give to me is light, positive, and playful?

Not that there's anything wrong with those sorts of friendships, but in those friendships you simply cannot be entirely honest or share all of your thoughts...you accept those friendships for being what they are, but I don't consider that a very close friend.

 

[mmhmm]

NO YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I really appreciate it. More than you know.

I can't really talk to my ENFP 8w7 friend like I would with others in my life. If I asked her questions like...'Why are you like this or that...?' there is no doubt in my mind she would become annoyed. But everything you said...it is what I have put together in my mind...and it is so nice to know that I am probably seeing things correctly with regards to her.

to the bolded, i understand that, some of my closest friends say that about me.
the weird thing is there's also a handful of people who would say they can talk
about anything to me, even the sad stuff (i'm actually really good with the sad
stuff if i say so myself hee hee).

because when i was little, oh boy. i listened to everybody, helped everybody.
my dad used to call me 'ann landers' (she's an agony aunt, i don't know if
you're old enough to recall hee hee). but the trouble is i'd emotionally invest
when i helped people or listen to their problems, and it must be a mix of
defense mechanisms and just growing up and paying more attention to myself
that makes me more selective at what sort of issues i want to jump in and
help. (this is also why i thought i was an e2 for a long time).

i don't think i'm able to pinpoint the exact criteria that makes me receptive to
other people's problem, but i'll generalise and say it's a wavelength thing.
if i feel that our general expectations of the tone and manner of the conversation
is somewhat in the same book--not necessarily the same page. i'm more than
happy to listen.

ie. if friend a's husband beats the shit out of her, yet she goes back 'because he will change'
i kinda slink away and really am not interested to hear anything.

but if friend b's husband also beats the shit out of her, and friend is trying to come up
with an exit plan, i'm all over that.​

does that make sense? hahaha i dunno why i picked that as examples. hahahaha.
it's kinda gross how much i like to help out actually. i don't doubt my capability
of being a good listener, and at the same time those aren't really the things i need
to be affirmed about, that's why sometimes it feels hard to talk to me. (my mother
tells me this ALL the time, that's i'm so independent she just doesn't know where
she fits in my life... but that's another story...)

the questioning bit: i'm like that too. it's a mix really of 1. if you don't know by now, then
you probably won't get it or 2. a simple: you don't get it (but it's okay you don't have to,
i still like you). and i know it can be terrible at times, and it's definitely a reflection of a lot
of stuff i've had to learn growing up (the hardest thing about growing up is reality) :

one of the steepest hills i had to trek was to acknowledge that people don't
just 'get it' right away / can't read my mind even though they are close to me,
and it's not because they don't like me less, or their liking me isn't genuine, they're
just different (it used to make me very sad that people i loved didn't quite understand
me and i had a hard time understanding why they didn't). again, it's because it's natural
for me to just sense things about people even though i often can't articulate it out.
(goes back to how i just get 'vibes' about people')

i'm also so aware of my own inconsistencies and set of all these unspoken 'guidelines'
i have at times and yet be so oblivious in particular moments too.

She is an amazing person. I am totally blown-out-of-the-water by how strong she is. How she actually gets things done as opposed to...oh say...'sitting around and day-dreaming about getting things done'. She is NOT the easiest person to get along with...but that is of little concern for me. Especially in light of all she brings into my life. She is hands-down one of the most giving/generous people I will ever come across. She is brilliant and just 'gets-things' so quickly...(I call this her 'witch powers' LOL)...and forces me & others to go outside of our comfort-zones and to do things that we would never consider doing...which oddly...always end up being positive experiences.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post here. It has been so helpful!!!

i'll tell you something. in terms of affirmation that really *oof*
makes my heart skip a beat (in a good way)... the bolded. i think it's
not only the content. but the speaker/conveyor matters too. my dad is actually
the only person who can say stuff like that to me and omg. waterfall
eyes mmhmm!

even though i always blink my tears away before anybody can see.
always brave face on, you know? even though the people that know
me really well know that inside, i just ... ick. sensitive. gross.

hahahahahahahaha. wheee!

 

[Starry]

I am really not sure either - about what you said about whether she really believes it, or if she's fearful. I mean, she didn't come across as angry. And it wasn't like she PANICKED when I brought up something she considered negative. It was more...I guess I felt like there was a condescending tone. (She is a bit older than me too, about 5 years, but actually a lot of my good female friends - almost a majority! - are 4-5 years older, or in a few cases even several years more, and we have very equal friendships.) I mean, I am putting words in her mouth but it was almost a bit "why think about such nasty things, you silly little girl?" That was somewhat the vibe. And very much "oh, just be happy! Never think about the negative things others could bring into your life! Just don't have those people in your life at all anyway!" But then, it just took on a somewhat darker tone to me when she assumed from some things I've said that my life and my emotional health was worse than it really is. And I'm quite realistic about my own ups and downs and what's good and bad in my life at any given moment - so I know when people are making things out to be worse than they are.

I think I would have thought there was more "wiggle room", as you say, but I'm probably all freaked out because this kind of thing specifically caused us to fall out a few years ago. It was worse then, she was having more issues really, I was less mature and probably not handling things that well...etc. But although for the most part I enjoyed her visit, it was the cumulative effect of a lot of this shutting down, or even finding myself self-editing things which could be remotely construed as "negative" - and then getting this email...not that I was furious or anything, but I sort of thought "oh, not this again. Is that REALLY how I come across? But why is she the only person in my life who seems to take it that way?"

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's more scared, or a domineering belief that everyone should adopt this strategy. I really am more inclined to just step back a bit and not tell her much about it if I feel negative about things. It's a shame in a way because she does have positive things to offer, but I can feel my blood pressure going up over some of the misunderstandings.

SilkRoad...I'm sorry you have had to deal with this. Regardless of e-type...ENFPs (which I definitely think she is)...can be such a royal pain-in-the-ass. I didn't choose my words carefully when I said 'panicked'. I should have said 'anxious'...but then again...an 'anxiousness' that wouldn't necessarily be apparent on the surface (unless to a very trained eye...and eye that has had the annoying task of dealing with an ENFP 7w6).

I will use the analogy of quitting smoking...in spite of the fact it is a poor one indeed because quitting smoking is a good thing...while I am not so sure 'quitting everything negative' is so. It is like she is trying to get off cigerettes...and then she believes she smells smoke. In an anxiousness (panic) she starts proclaiming how terrible cigerettes are.

In the end it has nothing to do with you. I mean...if she is a few years older...she may in fact feel, at times, an older-sisterly love for you...and has convinced herself that she is 'schooling' you (condenscending tone)...'protecting' you from the 'evils of focusing on anything negative'. But I think ultimately it only has to do with her. If she had truly incorporated this 'all positive system' into her being - with no doubts...there would be no need to try and 'get others on board' - so to speak. I may be way off base here SilkRoad...and please forgive me if I am...but when she speaks to you...I believe she is speaking to herself. It is easier to 'smell the smoke' when it is external.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the nature of Ne. It can take two completely different things...and make them similiar...and take two identical things...and make them nothing alike at all. I mention this because this is why it is so easy for us to 'rationalize' our own behavior. Why we get such a reputation for being manipulative. We can look at our own behavior...and instantly twist it around to not mean what it means. And we can do this without us even knowing. This is why she doesn't see ber own behavior as negative. But with you? She can take your neutral behavior...and turn it into something negative. And once she identifies your behavior as negative...she can immediately apply her 'all positive system' to it...which ultimately helps her vision...and not yours.

I'm not sure if the above was helpful at all of not. Or...more importantly...if it made any sense!!! I wrote it all freeform...so please let me know if you are sitting in front of your computer going ?????

In the end...I do believe you could make her see all of this...but TOTALLY understand if you are just done.

 

[SilkRoad]

But I think ultimately it only has to do with her. If she had truly incorporated this 'all positive system' into her being - with no doubts...there would be no need to try and 'get others on board' - so to speak. I may be way off base here SilkRoad...and please forgive me if I am...but when she speaks to you...I believe she is speaking to herself. It is easier to 'smell the smoke' when it is external.

It was all helpful, thank you! But the above was a FANTASTIC point. It makes sense. And to be fair I really doubt it is specific to one type... So many of us find ourselves criticising our parents (for example) for some annoying trait we have seen in them, and others can see that the annoying trait is one of OUR number one failings... But it would also make sense that an ENFP who is kind of doing that would put it across in that way - really vocalizing it and putting it out there, perhaps even to the extent of pushing it on another person - and also perspective shifts the way you've described, even to a harmful or unrealistic extent. I think that would be the type-related manifestation of this tendency which can be found in anyone, really.

I don't know if I really want to pursue it with her, though. SHe does live far away, we're only in touch from time to time, and I feel wary because we fell out over this very sort of thing years ago, though there were more issues on top of it then (a few of them probably being my own). I dunno, maybe that indicates this isn't a great friendship. But I have to admit that this year particularly I've felt more like stepping back a bit from friends who are tending to be difficult, rather than trying to explain things to them in the (sometimes faint) hope that things will improve. If it was a really close friend I hope I would try to face up to it more but...I'm a bit on the avoidant side at the best of times, and I'm not sure I have the energy.

As long as we remain friends I think I can take something good away too...because I can be negative. (Just not in an ongoing and entrenched way!). I do appreciate the power of positive thinking. Although I don't see it conquering all - too much of a realist!

THanks again for all your input