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  1. #31
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    i have no idea if i even answered your points. hahahha.
    NO YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I really appreciate it. More than you know.

    I can't really talk to my ENFP 8w7 friend like I would with others in my life. If I asked her questions like...'Why are you like this or that...?' there is no doubt in my mind she would become annoyed. But everything you said...it is what I have put together in my mind...and it is so nice to know that I am probably seeing things correctly with regards to her.

    She is an amazing person. I am totally blown-out-of-the-water by how strong she is. How she actually gets things done as opposed to...oh say...'sitting around and day-dreaming about getting things done'. She is NOT the easiest person to get along with...but that is of little concern for me. Especially in light of all she brings into my life. She is hands-down one of the most giving/generous people I will ever come across. She is brilliant and just 'gets-things' so quickly...(I call this her 'witch powers' LOL)...and forces me & others to go outside of our comfort-zones and to do things that we would never consider doing...which oddly...always end up being positive experiences.

    I really appreciate you taking the time to post here. It has been so helpful!!!

  2. #32
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    What I couldn't figure out though from SilkRoad's subsequent messages was whether or not her ENFP was 8w7 or 7w6. Because my 'advice' would be actually be different in both cases. In all honesty...if she was 8w7...I would say...'Yup...sorry SilkRoad...you are just going to have to deal.' Because I can't talk to my 8w7 friend about this. She MUST figure out everything on her own...and if I am to hang-out with her...I just need to curb my behavior (this is not a 'bad' thing in my mind...it is just how it is). But I'm thinking if SilkRoad's ENFP was 7w6 there may be some 'wiggle-room'. It has been my experience that my 7w6 ENFPs are more 'accomodating' (if you can get them to focus/understand the issue you are having) than my 8w7 friend.

    I can't figure out if SilkRoad's ENFP is adopting this philosophy because she actually believes it (which would be more 8w7 to me)...or if it is because she is profoundly fearful (7w6) and looking for a quick-fix. Something started to make me think SilkRoad's ENFP is scared. And yes...projecting her 'new life philosophy' on her...in an almost 'panicked' way. Yet again...it is not even remotely unusual for an average ENFP to say these kind of *let's all be happy* things...merely to inspire...but not to the extent that SilkRoad describes. I actually don't know what to think. I doubt I'm even making sense anymore LOL.
    I am really not sure either - about what you said about whether she really believes it, or if she's fearful. I mean, she didn't come across as angry. And it wasn't like she PANICKED when I brought up something she considered negative. It was more...I guess I felt like there was a condescending tone. (She is a bit older than me too, about 5 years, but actually a lot of my good female friends - almost a majority! - are 4-5 years older, or in a few cases even several years more, and we have very equal friendships.) I mean, I am putting words in her mouth but it was almost a bit "why think about such nasty things, you silly little girl?" That was somewhat the vibe. And very much "oh, just be happy! Never think about the negative things others could bring into your life! Just don't have those people in your life at all anyway!" But then, it just took on a somewhat darker tone to me when she assumed from some things I've said that my life and my emotional health was worse than it really is. And I'm quite realistic about my own ups and downs and what's good and bad in my life at any given moment - so I know when people are making things out to be worse than they are.

    I think I would have thought there was more "wiggle room", as you say, but I'm probably all freaked out because this kind of thing specifically caused us to fall out a few years ago. It was worse then, she was having more issues really, I was less mature and probably not handling things that well...etc. But although for the most part I enjoyed her visit, it was the cumulative effect of a lot of this shutting down, or even finding myself self-editing things which could be remotely construed as "negative" - and then getting this email...not that I was furious or anything, but I sort of thought "oh, not this again. Is that REALLY how I come across? But why is she the only person in my life who seems to take it that way?"

    Yeah, I'm not sure if it's more scared, or a domineering belief that everyone should adopt this strategy. I really am more inclined to just step back a bit and not tell her much about it if I feel negative about things. It's a shame in a way because she does have positive things to offer, but I can feel my blood pressure going up over some of the misunderstandings.
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  3. #33
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    I mean, if you've taken into account you might be overly negative or depressed or something, and you don't think that's the case here then...Your friend sounds annoying and like a fair-weather friend. Just know now that you can't say anything negative to her, that your friendship is now a very shallow one, that doesn't accept all angles and truths of your experience.

    Save your complete honesty for other friends and keep her on the fringes. That's what I would do.

  4. #34
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I mean, if you've taken into account you might be overly negative or depressed or something, and you don't think that's the case here then...Your friend sounds annoying and like a fair-weather friend. Just know now that you can't say anything negative to her, that your friendship is now a very shallow one, that doesn't accept all angles and truths of your experience.

    Save your complete honesty for other friends and keep her on the fringes. That's what I would do.
    Yeah...I have had low times this year, but have inflicted very little of it on others - in fact, recent events with a few people have made me think it's better to work out a lot of stuff on my own (or on a forum such as this, hm!). Because people tend to misunderstand in various ways (not usually thinking I'm excessively negative...just different ways.) And I am feeling much better now...

    And I think when someone gives you a perspective like that, it's worth sort of...sense checking it; do my other friends seem concerned that I'm constantly negative? Etc. And that's not the case. Ha, last year I got told that I was being annoyingly positive, by a few people. You can't win. Fortunately I do have friends who don't judge me like that either way.

    I actually do think of myself as a realist. I insist on seeing the ten sides to every story. Unless I'm really mad at a person, or seriously seriouly wounded by a situation, I always have to balance out a positive statement with a less positive, just as a reality check; and among my friends I'm often the one who, when someone else says "oh...I can't stand xyz" will say "but you know, there are factors which kind of explain why people are like that."
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah...I have had low times this year, but have inflicted very little of it on others - in fact, recent events with a few people have made me think it's better to work out a lot of stuff on my own (or on a forum such as this, hm!). Because people tend to misunderstand in various ways (not usually thinking I'm excessively negative...just different ways.) And I am feeling much better now...

    And I think when someone gives you a perspective like that, it's worth sort of...sense checking it; do my other friends seem concerned that I'm constantly negative? Etc. And that's not the case. Ha, last year I got told that I was being annoyingly positive, by a few people. You can't win.

    I actually do think of myself as a realist. I insist on seeing the ten sides to every story. Unless I'm really mad at a person, or seriously seriouly wounded by a situation, I always have to balance out a positive statement with a less positive, just as a reality check; and among my friends I'm often the one who, when someone else says "oh...I can't stand xyz" will say "but you know, there are factors which kind of explain why people are like that."
    Well there's a difference between ALWAYS being negative or unloading problems every time you talk to her, or being so negative that you're actually criticizing or abusing her in some way...and just being a normal person who has ups and downs and can see the good and bad in different situations.

    If it was like "gosh you're always complaining about small things and never doing anything about it" then maybe she would have a point, if it was constant, and they were things that could be easily handled, not major life problems or things beyond your control. That would just be...real. As your friend, she would just be speaking honestly.

    But never be negative, never speak of anything that's not positive...um, did we join a cult? Are we in the Stepford Wives now? Or do we simply have the sort of friendship where the only energy you want to give to me is light, positive, and playful?

    Not that there's anything wrong with those sorts of friendships, but in those friendships you simply cannot be entirely honest or share all of your thoughts...you accept those friendships for being what they are, but I don't consider that a very close friend.

  6. #36
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    NO YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I really appreciate it. More than you know.

    I can't really talk to my ENFP 8w7 friend like I would with others in my life. If I asked her questions like...'Why are you like this or that...?' there is no doubt in my mind she would become annoyed. But everything you said...it is what I have put together in my mind...and it is so nice to know that I am probably seeing things correctly with regards to her.
    to the bolded, i understand that, some of my closest friends say that about me.
    the weird thing is there's also a handful of people who would say they can talk
    about anything to me, even the sad stuff (i'm actually really good with the sad
    stuff if i say so myself hee hee).

    because when i was little, oh boy. i listened to everybody, helped everybody.
    my dad used to call me 'ann landers' (she's an agony aunt, i don't know if
    you're old enough to recall hee hee). but the trouble is i'd emotionally invest
    when i helped people or listen to their problems, and it must be a mix of
    defense mechanisms and just growing up and paying more attention to myself
    that makes me more selective at what sort of issues i want to jump in and
    help. (this is also why i thought i was an e2 for a long time).

    i don't think i'm able to pinpoint the exact criteria that makes me receptive to
    other people's problem, but i'll generalise and say it's a wavelength thing.
    if i feel that our general expectations of the tone and manner of the conversation
    is somewhat in the same book--not necessarily the same page. i'm more than
    happy to listen.

    ie. if friend a's husband beats the shit out of her, yet she goes back 'because he will change'
    i kinda slink away and really am not interested to hear anything.

    but if friend b's husband also beats the shit out of her, and friend is trying to come up
    with an exit plan, i'm all over that.

    does that make sense? hahaha i dunno why i picked that as examples. hahahaha.
    it's kinda gross how much i like to help out actually. i don't doubt my capability
    of being a good listener, and at the same time those aren't really the things i need
    to be affirmed about, that's why sometimes it feels hard to talk to me. (my mother
    tells me this ALL the time, that's i'm so independent she just doesn't know where
    she fits in my life... but that's another story...)

    the questioning bit: i'm like that too. it's a mix really of 1. if you don't know by now, then
    you probably won't get it or 2. a simple: you don't get it (but it's okay you don't have to,
    i still like you). and i know it can be terrible at times, and it's definitely a reflection of a lot
    of stuff i've had to learn growing up (the hardest thing about growing up is reality) :

    one of the steepest hills i had to trek was to acknowledge that people don't
    just 'get it' right away / can't read my mind even though they are close to me,
    and it's not because they don't like me less, or their liking me isn't genuine, they're
    just different (it used to make me very sad that people i loved didn't quite understand
    me and i had a hard time understanding why they didn't). again, it's because it's natural
    for me to just sense things about people even though i often can't articulate it out.
    (goes back to how i just get 'vibes' about people')

    i'm also so aware of my own inconsistencies and set of all these unspoken 'guidelines'
    i have at times and yet be so oblivious in particular moments too.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    She is an amazing person. I am totally blown-out-of-the-water by how strong she is. How she actually gets things done as opposed to...oh say...'sitting around and day-dreaming about getting things done'. She is NOT the easiest person to get along with...but that is of little concern for me. Especially in light of all she brings into my life. She is hands-down one of the most giving/generous people I will ever come across. She is brilliant and just 'gets-things' so quickly...(I call this her 'witch powers' LOL)...and forces me & others to go outside of our comfort-zones and to do things that we would never consider doing...which oddly...always end up being positive experiences.

    I really appreciate you taking the time to post here. It has been so helpful!!!
    i'll tell you something. in terms of affirmation that really *oof*
    makes my heart skip a beat (in a good way)... the bolded. i think it's
    not only the content. but the speaker/conveyor matters too. my dad is actually
    the only person who can say stuff like that to me and omg. waterfall
    eyes mmhmm!

    even though i always blink my tears away before anybody can see.
    always brave face on, you know? even though the people that know
    me really well know that inside, i just ... ick. sensitive. gross.

    hahahahahahahaha. wheee!
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  7. #37
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I am really not sure either - about what you said about whether she really believes it, or if she's fearful. I mean, she didn't come across as angry. And it wasn't like she PANICKED when I brought up something she considered negative. It was more...I guess I felt like there was a condescending tone. (She is a bit older than me too, about 5 years, but actually a lot of my good female friends - almost a majority! - are 4-5 years older, or in a few cases even several years more, and we have very equal friendships.) I mean, I am putting words in her mouth but it was almost a bit "why think about such nasty things, you silly little girl?" That was somewhat the vibe. And very much "oh, just be happy! Never think about the negative things others could bring into your life! Just don't have those people in your life at all anyway!" But then, it just took on a somewhat darker tone to me when she assumed from some things I've said that my life and my emotional health was worse than it really is. And I'm quite realistic about my own ups and downs and what's good and bad in my life at any given moment - so I know when people are making things out to be worse than they are.

    I think I would have thought there was more "wiggle room", as you say, but I'm probably all freaked out because this kind of thing specifically caused us to fall out a few years ago. It was worse then, she was having more issues really, I was less mature and probably not handling things that well...etc. But although for the most part I enjoyed her visit, it was the cumulative effect of a lot of this shutting down, or even finding myself self-editing things which could be remotely construed as "negative" - and then getting this email...not that I was furious or anything, but I sort of thought "oh, not this again. Is that REALLY how I come across? But why is she the only person in my life who seems to take it that way?"

    Yeah, I'm not sure if it's more scared, or a domineering belief that everyone should adopt this strategy. I really am more inclined to just step back a bit and not tell her much about it if I feel negative about things. It's a shame in a way because she does have positive things to offer, but I can feel my blood pressure going up over some of the misunderstandings.
    SilkRoad...I'm sorry you have had to deal with this. Regardless of e-type...ENFPs (which I definitely think she is)...can be such a royal pain-in-the-ass. I didn't choose my words carefully when I said 'panicked'. I should have said 'anxious'...but then again...an 'anxiousness' that wouldn't necessarily be apparent on the surface (unless to a very trained eye...and eye that has had the annoying task of dealing with an ENFP 7w6).

    I will use the analogy of quitting smoking...in spite of the fact it is a poor one indeed because quitting smoking is a good thing...while I am not so sure 'quitting everything negative' is so. It is like she is trying to get off cigerettes...and then she believes she smells smoke. In an anxiousness (panic) she starts proclaiming how terrible cigerettes are.

    In the end it has nothing to do with you. I mean...if she is a few years older...she may in fact feel, at times, an older-sisterly love for you...and has convinced herself that she is 'schooling' you (condenscending tone)...'protecting' you from the 'evils of focusing on anything negative'. But I think ultimately it only has to do with her. If she had truly incorporated this 'all positive system' into her being - with no doubts...there would be no need to try and 'get others on board' - so to speak. I may be way off base here SilkRoad...and please forgive me if I am...but when she speaks to you...I believe she is speaking to herself. It is easier to 'smell the smoke' when it is external.

    I've been thinking a lot lately about the nature of Ne. It can take two completely different things...and make them similiar...and take two identical things...and make them nothing alike at all. I mention this because this is why it is so easy for us to 'rationalize' our own behavior. Why we get such a reputation for being manipulative. We can look at our own behavior...and instantly twist it around to not mean what it means. And we can do this without us even knowing. This is why she doesn't see ber own behavior as negative. But with you? She can take your neutral behavior...and turn it into something negative. And once she identifies your behavior as negative...she can immediately apply her 'all positive system' to it...which ultimately helps her vision...and not yours.

    I'm not sure if the above was helpful at all of not. Or...more importantly...if it made any sense!!! I wrote it all freeform...so please let me know if you are sitting in front of your computer going ?????

    In the end...I do believe you could make her see all of this...but TOTALLY understand if you are just done.

  8. #38
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    But I think ultimately it only has to do with her. If she had truly incorporated this 'all positive system' into her being - with no doubts...there would be no need to try and 'get others on board' - so to speak. I may be way off base here SilkRoad...and please forgive me if I am...but when she speaks to you...I believe she is speaking to herself. It is easier to 'smell the smoke' when it is external.
    It was all helpful, thank you! But the above was a FANTASTIC point. It makes sense. And to be fair I really doubt it is specific to one type... So many of us find ourselves criticising our parents (for example) for some annoying trait we have seen in them, and others can see that the annoying trait is one of OUR number one failings... But it would also make sense that an ENFP who is kind of doing that would put it across in that way - really vocalizing it and putting it out there, perhaps even to the extent of pushing it on another person - and also perspective shifts the way you've described, even to a harmful or unrealistic extent. I think that would be the type-related manifestation of this tendency which can be found in anyone, really.

    I don't know if I really want to pursue it with her, though. SHe does live far away, we're only in touch from time to time, and I feel wary because we fell out over this very sort of thing years ago, though there were more issues on top of it then (a few of them probably being my own). I dunno, maybe that indicates this isn't a great friendship. But I have to admit that this year particularly I've felt more like stepping back a bit from friends who are tending to be difficult, rather than trying to explain things to them in the (sometimes faint) hope that things will improve. If it was a really close friend I hope I would try to face up to it more but...I'm a bit on the avoidant side at the best of times, and I'm not sure I have the energy.

    As long as we remain friends I think I can take something good away too...because I can be negative. (Just not in an ongoing and entrenched way!). I do appreciate the power of positive thinking. Although I don't see it conquering all - too much of a realist!

    THanks again for all your input
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