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  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    That sort of behavior sets off all kinds of silent alarms for me. There’s a difference between conquering the negative and flat out avoiding it/running from it. And it’s annoying when people have a serious fear of it and try to dress it up as ‘enlightenment’ or being positive, because it’s like they’re completely oblivious to how much they’re ACTUALLY contributing far more negative judgment to the world than bringing anything benevolent into it. It seems to me like they’re seeking benevolence for themselves and trying to sell it as something less selfish (primarily to themselves). I find it to stifling to be around. I think real ‘positive’ strength is when someone can be around negative affect without feeling threatened by it.

    And it’s funny- people who are easily threatened by negative affect and are willing to admit to it as such don’t seem anywhere near as stifling to me. So I guess it isn't the fear that I feel averse to so much as the denial, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    It's not that I want to break up the friendship again, but honestly my inclination is to just keep her in my life in small doses, and to not tell her much about what's going on except that I feel pretty good and cheerful about everything - whether or not it is entirely true. I can imagine this sort of thing really stressing me out otherwise.

    What do you guys think about all this? Any similar experiences?
    This^ is kind of where I ended up with someone who used to be a close friend. She started projecting like crazy (and I seriously mean like crazy, with bizarre specific things) and also started getting ridiculously judgmental about negative affect- going on and on about how it’s so ‘irresponsible’ to feel bad. (xNFJ, 3w4.) I haven’t actually talked to her in five years. I just ran out of patience for it. But I have her on my fb list and occasionally we’ll exchange a few comments without incident. If she’s still projecting weird things onto me, at least it’s enough distance to stop her from actually sharing them with me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #12
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    I think that perspective can also sometimes be a coping mechanism for people who have underlying depression or a hard time dealing with shit in their lives so they need to downplay the bad things in life. In a sense, they don't want to "deal" with your problems because it destroys the illusion that "life is perfect". My ENFP 8w7 sis is not like that.

  3. #13
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Yes, true, too. A dogma that makes them feel "at home."
    The nice thing about dogma is that does reduce the requirment that you excercise your imagination and/or do any thinking.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  4. #14
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    The nice thing about dogma is that does reduce the requirment that you excercise your imagination and/or do any thinking.
    Well, the unusual thing about this case-
    I think my mom did do a decent deal of thinking to reach this conclusion, and therefore it ends up being a set belief- she did so much contemplation about the subject that it ends up being more true than anything else. That's the dogma for her. (And maybe the person in the op?) Imagine coming to some epiphany that was otherwise inaccessible to you. You just feel like you "found God" and others don't get it. I think that's how some dogmas go.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  5. #15
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Well, the unusual thing about this case-
    I think my mom did do a decent deal of thinking to reach this conclusion, and therefore it ends up being a set belief- she did so much contemplation about the subject that it ends up being more true than anything else. That's the dogma for her. (And maybe the person in the op?) Imagine coming to some epiphany that was otherwise inaccessible to you. You just feel like you "found God" and others don't get it. I think that's how some dogmas go.
    Well in your case it sounds like your mother developed a template she could apply to most situations. This is not to say that template didn't require thinking but once that work was done - the whole point is to develop a solution with the widest possible application. Which means you don't have to treat each and every situation as unique and subject it to as much analysis. To a certain degree we all do that: as a simple example - I make it a habit to stop when I cross the street and look both ways. On a more complex level I approach new situations with a firm eye on what can go wrong but assuming that it is as it appears - my template is very cautious optimism. It's not always appropriate but it does keep me reasonably alert and thinking.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  6. #16
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    Well in your case it sounds like your mother developed a template she could apply to most situations. This is not to say that template didn't require thinking but once that work was done - the whole point is to develop a solution with the widest possible application. Which means you don't have to treat each and every situation as unique and subject it to as much analysis. To a certain degree we all do that: as a simple example - I make it a habit to stop when I cross the street and look both ways. On a more complex level I approach new situations with a firm eye on what can go wrong but assuming that it is as it appears - my template is very cautious optimism. It's not always appropriate but it does keep me reasonably alert and thinking
    Well, in my mom's case, it seems to have come from someone who is genuinely sensitive and thinks too much. From someone who almost sees too many nuances of situations, to the point where it's almost mentally impossible to keep up. A general and optimistic view would be more beneficial to someone who is exhausted by the details of every single situation. It's like, "this is what my constant complex processes came up with. Be positive and positive will come to you." It gives her a break for a minute.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  7. #17
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Well, in my mom's case, it seems to have come from someone who is genuinely sensitive and thinks too much. From someone who almost sees too many nuances of situations, to the point where it's almost mentally impossible to keep up. A general and optimistic view would be more beneficial to someone who is exhausted by the details of every single situation. It's like, "this is what my constant complex processes came up with. Be positive and positive will come to you." It gives her a break for a minute.
    That actually makes sense to me. As somebody who can be affected by "paralysis by analysis" I can sympathize. I wonder if there are people who are externally oriented that simply can get overwhelmed by the amount of data they are taking in and the requirement to process it.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  8. #18
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Ahhh, you know what I mean then. That's interesting that it reminded you so much of your friend. I wouldn't have thought of 8w7 as a typical ENFP e-type (though I'm sure it's possible) but it does seem like it might fit.

    It's like, yes, she can certainly bring positive things into my life. I just don't like it when any mildly negative (or realistic!) comment I make results in a lecture about being more positive, or results in her imputing horribly negative feelings to me that I don't really have. I think what makes it kind of unsettling for me, not just annoying, is that as an INFJ type 6 I SERIOUSLY second-guess myself a lot anyway and tend to be anxious. So if I'm actually feeling reasonably ok about things, or maybe I'm not feeling ok but I know why and I know it will pass on to better things, it kind of gets to me when someone tries to tell me that I'm obviously drowning in a pool of negativity, or whatever.

    This girl has been through some really difficult stuff in her life, and in a way I can't really pretend to know where she's coming from. Perhaps completely shutting off anything like negativity is her way to deal with it, and I have to respect that - it probably has some things going for it. But she really shouldn't assume that because of some difficulties in my life and those of the people around me, I'm feeling just the way she was a few years ago and need to change my life in the same way she did.
    I agree with you that e8 is a strange e-type for an ENFP. This is what she claims to identify with…and frankly…with any other ENFP I could cry ‘bs’…but with her it seems to fit. In all honesty…I can see the e8 better than I can see the ENFP. In fact, I was originally convinced she was an INTJ until I forced her to take the full-length MBTI…and about fell out of my seat when I saw the results. I ‘get-it’ now…but she is like no other ENFP I know.

    I have an ENFP bff…that is kinda the classic, stereotypical ENFP with an e-type of 7w6…and while she often times seems unable to focus for long periods of time on ‘anything negative’…she would never lecture another person for feeling the way they feel…or judge them harshly…or express frustration. She has a very non-judgmental, live and let live type stance to life. Now she might be a little unrealistic about ‘negative realities’. She may somewhere deep inside of her believe ‘fairy dust’ will solve all the worlds problems…(<- - - I recently came-out as a 7w6 myself…and I swear I think this is what I used to believe!!!)

    But the supposed ENFP e8? It is not an ‘inability’ to focus on negative life situations, etc. but rather an obstinate rejection of them like you describe. But now…my ENFP actually gets pissed or agitated whenever I bring up anything negative. Is your friend like that? Like very recently I was (calmly) venting to her about another friend of mine (trying to work through some things in my mind)…and she just angrily burst out “why are you even friends with this person!!!” And I’m left thinking ??? ((it is completely unrealistic to me as well. I don’t expect there never to be issues with the individuals in my life…and it is not like I’m going to drop this other person just because I’m struggling a little bit with a very minor issue)).

    And yah…I have been accused of being too negative as well LOL! Me…another ENFP…too negative…when in reality I rarely focus on negative things either – being to my detriment!

    It is interesting because this ENFP has had some horrendous life experiences as well. Again…if you do not mind me asking because I am finding this very interesting…
    Does your friend seem angry and frustrated whenever ‘negative things’ come up…or is it more the 7w6…a more cheerful…’hey…let’s not focus on the bad things in life’...?

  9. #19
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It seems to me like they’re seeking benevolence for themselves and trying to sell it as something less selfish (primarily to themselves). I find it to stifling to be around. I think real ‘positive’ strength is when someone can be around negative affect without feeling threatened by it.
    Yes...stifling. Especially when you start to feel that you have to watch out what you say around the person because they'll call it excessively negative or somehow use it against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I agree with you that e8 is a strange e-type for an ENFP. This is what she claims to identify with…and frankly…with any other ENFP I could cry ‘bs’…but with her it seems to fit. In all honesty…I can see the e8 better than I can see the ENFP. In fact, I was originally convinced she was an INTJ until I forced her to take the full-length MBTI…and about fell out of my seat when I saw the results. I ‘get-it’ now…but she is like no other ENFP I know.

    I have an ENFP bff…that is kinda the classic, stereotypical ENFP with an e-type of 7w6…and while she often times seems unable to focus for long periods of time on ‘anything negative’…she would never lecture another person for feeling the way they feel…or judge them harshly…or express frustration. She has a very non-judgmental, live and let live type stance to life. Now she might be a little unrealistic about ‘negative realities’. She may somewhere deep inside of her believe ‘fairy dust’ will solve all the worlds problems…(<- - - I recently came-out as a 7w6 myself…and I swear I think this is what I used to believe!!!)

    But the supposed ENFP e8? It is not an ‘inability’ to focus on negative life situations, etc. but rather an obstinate rejection of them like you describe. But now…my ENFP actually gets pissed or agitated whenever I bring up anything negative. Is your friend like that? Like very recently I was (calmly) venting to her about another friend of mine (trying to work through some things in my mind)…and she just angrily burst out “why are you even friends with this person!!!” And I’m left thinking ??? ((it is completely unrealistic to me as well. I don’t expect there never to be issues with the individuals in my life…and it is not like I’m going to drop this other person just because I’m struggling a little bit with a very minor issue)).

    And yah…I have been accused of being too negative as well LOL! Me…another ENFP…too negative…when in reality I rarely focus on negative things either – being to my detriment!

    It is interesting because this ENFP has had some horrendous life experiences as well. Again…if you do not mind me asking because I am finding this very interesting…
    Does your friend seem angry and frustrated whenever ‘negative things’ come up…or is it more the 7w6…a more cheerful…’hey…let’s not focus on the bad things in life’...?
    Hmm. I haven't seen her seem angry/frustrated, at least recently. It's more an almost fake (to me) "why concentrate on such negative things? Life is so full of sunshine and flowers!!!" But she would definitely do the "why are you friends with this person" thing, or very close.

    I really think she is projecting her past experiences and feelings onto me, big time. The frequent assumption that I'm lonely and isolated and all my friends are a downer - when I gave her specific examples of why that wasn't the case - makes me think this. It just reminds me too much of what happened with us before. I felt like I was being manipulated because I trusted her and would sometimes vent to her (which she was also doing), sometimes share a little gossip about mutual friends, etc etc. And she'd always turn it around and somehow make it something negative about my attitude. I don't want to have that problem with her again...it's just as well she lives far away now. I am pretty sure she means well, or I would prefer to think that unless proven otherwise. I think she may want to "rescue" me from some of the problems she had/has. But I don't want to be rescued, and I'm not her...

    In fact, it's not quite accurate of me to say that she wouldn't let a negative word escape her mouth. For instance, she complained that she'd run into some old acquaintances and they'd asked her where she was staying, etc. She brought it up more than once and I think it really annoyed her. I said "oh well, you know people just want to make small talk." She said "no, they're being nosy. It's none of their business. I know what people are like!" This is probably based on some past experience with people gossipping or intruding or whatever. But I could have said - as she would have done to me - "why let these people get to you? What does it matter if they ask you questions like that??" But I didn't...because what's the point? We all have our pet peeves etc - although this one was something that wouldn't get to me at all, I'd just tell them where I was staying . Unfortunately, everything of that nature that I let slip she picked up on and kind of made it seem like I'm depressed, have a negative outlook and downer people around me.

    I do wonder as well if in some way she is jealous. Yes, she knows I have certain issues. But unless she completely closed her ears at those points, she should also know that I have friends whose company I enjoy and who I find supportive, and so on. While she said things to me like "I used to have lots of people in my life with problems, LIKE YOU DO, but now I don't any more!!!", it was also pretty clear that she has very few people in her life that she does trust and feel close to at all. It partly seems that she's decided it's her against the negative world, and that proximity to other people, or caring about them and their issues, is a bad idea unless they're super-duper positive and fan-bloody-tastic all the time. She sort of professed a total disinterest in what others were doing or thinking and that she planned to not let others affect her at all. I find that unrealistic and a bit selfish, though I do realise the value of looking after yourself. And I also doubt she is that unaffected. At one point I said, regarding some changes that I'd made and similar changes that other friends had made, "yeah, you know, everyone I've spoken to who made similar changes says that it worked out for the best for them." Nothing negative about that, right? But she goes "Why even think about what others think or do or why they do it? Just do what's best for YOU!". ????? How is it bad to say that I feel good about a decision I made, and that others who made similar decisions feel similarly?

    Although I certainly hope this doesn't happen, I do wonder if this is going to work or last for her, anyway. She's had a lot of ups and downs emotionally and otherwise, and to a certain extent she admits to it. Her approach now seems to me to have some positive things to recommend it, but the extreme to which she's taken it feels fake and unrealistic to me. And I don't feel that it's an approach she should intrude onto everyone. We'll see. Anyway, I'm unlikely to see her again for some time. I'm happy to keep in touch occasionally, and by email etc it's easier to do the "yes, everything is absolutely fine" thing. It's a shame when you can't be more honest with a friend, but I am not going to let her use my innocent words against me to tell me that I'm desperately unhappy. I already wrote back to her in reply to this email and kept it fairly realistic and cheerful, but pointed out the differences between her approach and mine. I hope she doesn't push it beyond that, because I can see us having a problem if she does. If she writes back and pushes it, I probably won't respond to that email.
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  10. #20
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I do have to add, that despite how frustrated I sound in this thread and how it must come across - I quite enjoyed most of my visit with her. It was nice to catch up and some of what she said was genuinely helpful. I think it was just the cumulative effect of some of this stuff - and I did start self-editing around her after a few conversations - with finally that email which sort of told me how terrible I must be feeling and how I need to get out before it's too late. Ok, I'm exaggerating slightly, but only slightly.
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