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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Having to live in a "T" world.

KDude

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If Fi was as generous and kind as some descriptions make it out to be, then there would never be a use for any morals, religion, philosophy, interpersonal instruction, or ethical discussion under any conditions - for the fact that some people are merely born/naturally inclined to be one way or another. In this neat little world, no one can be commended or blamed for anything. It's all type related.

I'm being a little extreme, but my point is simply to point out the uselessness of subscribing too much to functions.. especially labels like "nice" and "mean". Life is more complex than this. Typology is a neat way to try to break it down somewhat, but at the end of the day, it's only a small piece of the puzzle. You won't find all the answers here. Or who knows.. maybe it's worse. Maybe it's complete bullshit. =)

Besides, it's good to give the rest of your life/experiences some credit anyways. I mean, if you ARE a nice person.. and a Fi type.. don't just say it's Fi. You got to that point in a much more rich way, I'm sure.
 

uncommonentity

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I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.

O_O.....What?

Smart people earn the most money.

There are far more outcasted Ts suffering in the world than misunderstood Fs I assure you.

Picture being a super computer in a world full of cavemen versus being a master of hugs in a world full of people who loved to be touched.
 

OrangeAppled

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Here's the Mean People Earn More link.

Agreeableness mostly correlates to F, although it may also correlate to interaction styles (for example, informing styles might be more agreeable).

I saw that study before, and I also find the terms agreeable & disagreeable confusing/misleading.

Even though I am an F, on the Big5/SLOAN test, I don't score as agreeable...I'm near the middle & score as an RLUEI (with E standing for "egocentric" as opposed to agreeable). I think this is because I am concerned with autonomy over the group & don't have a warm demeanor. Even though I go with the flow, I am also not overly accommodating because of my loner streak & a sense of ethics which includes my rights.

However, in the work place, I am also not aggressive nor outspoken. I'm not a team-oriented follower nor a group leader, which makes my agreeableness very contextual. I tend to be in the agreeable category where it is NOT to my advantage (ie. a concern for fairness & the wellbeing of everyone, even at the cost of my own advancement), but disagreeable where it is also NOT valued (ie. not warm or outgoing). Somehow, I think this is worse for advancement, because the aloof demeanor makes for bad first impressions, but I'm also not particularly assertive when it comes to pay/raises/promotions/etc.
 

Eric B

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First of all, I think Eric B made a good post here:
Still, I would argue that Fi generally comes across as less critical than Ti, and even less so than Fe (although Fe can also be very expressively warm, of course).
That would be because F is less critical than T, and Fi=FP, and Fe=FJ, and P tends to be less critical than J! Both T/F and J/P are parallel "responsiveness' or "agreeableness" dichotomies.
In my opinion, the reason Fi has such a reputation for stubbornness is that it seems to come out of nowhere. Fi-types are generally very agreeable... until we are very much not. It's surprising if you don't know that aspect of the person, but it's hardly the normal operating mode. Anyone who thinks Fi = (rebellion + stubbornness) is ignoring much of the nature of Fi.

So I think where types fall on these different scales is interesting, since several of them capture qualities would affect how agreeable/disagreeable one is. And, of course, the scale ratings should be taken with many grains of salt... it's a newer instrument, limitations of self-reporting, etc, etc.

Even if the scale ratings reflect any kind of reality, they don't tell the whole story. While IFPs tend to rank low on "self-focus", for example, it's also true that we are plenty capable of rationalizing what we want.

Still, I think the business world highly values Te-related skills (as evidenced by most top-level managers)... and to a lesser extend Fe (people oriented roles) and Ti (technical and faster paced fields). Fi comes in a distant fourth, generally... since its benefits are fairly meta.
Fi's deep humane focus (in a preferred position; it's different for TJ's tertiary or inferior) tends to make people acquiescent to others, but then if deeply held values are crossed, then they will dig in their heels. If it's really serious, then they could become passionate.
In either the typological/functional models, or temperament (which is what I'm basically refer to), there are always exceptions to the typical behavior, and rather than contradicting between the different models, even the atypical behavior seems to correspond.

I saw that study before, and I also find the terms agreeable & disagreeable confusing/misleading.

Even though I am an F, on the Big5/SLOAN test, I don't score as agreeable...I'm near the middle & score as an RLUEI (with E standing for "egocentric" as opposed to agreeable). I think this is because I am concerned with autonomy over the group & don't have a warm demeanor. Even though I go with the flow, I am also not overly accommodating because of my loner streak & a sense of ethics which includes my rights.

However, in the work place, I am also not aggressive nor outspoken. I'm not a team-oriented follower nor a group leader, which makes my agreeableness very contextual. I tend to be in the agreeable category where it is NOT to my advantage (ie. a concern for fairness & the wellbeing of everyone, even at the cost of my own advancement), but disagreeable where it is also NOT valued (ie. not warm or outgoing). Somehow, I think this is worse for advancement, because the aloof demeanor makes for bad first impressions, but I'm also not particularly assertive when it comes to pay/raises/promotions/etc.
If I remember correctly, you were more of a Phlegmatic than Supine. Even though the two get bundled together in being represented by both the INP and NF groups, the Phlegmatic is actually moderate rather than totally reserved and agreeable. They can take people or leave them, and usually don't want to expend too much energy with people. So this could explain why some Fi types might be more stubborn and less agreeable. So what you describe sounds just like that.
The Phlegmatic is also more Calm, while the Supine is Limbic, so the five temperament theory could also explain some variations in Neuroticism, as well as agreeableness.

Also, @several people and WSJ article, I don't think the opposite of "agreeableness" is supposed to be "disagreeableness". I'm not sure what is; but I believe using that term sort of skews our understanding of what agreeableness is. It almost suggests a character trait vs flaw too much.
Before I knew about Big Five, or even Type, I had thought "agreeable vs critical" would be a good representation of the Responsiveness factor, but I realized that even "critical" carried too much of a negative connotation and could easily be misunderstood.
 

PeaceBaby

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I am still puzzled by how "T" is correlated to "mean" in the OP.

There are "mean" folks, of all types, really. I've met friendly T's who are trying to make the world a better place, and nasty F's who are not. What is the premise of the OP based on? Personal opinion or observation?
 

sui generis

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Did you all see the news article about how people who are mean get paid better?

I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.

Woah, what? Since when does T = "mean"? I've known some mean Fs in my life. People are individuals. And for what it's worth, I often feel as though I live in a Feeler's world. :shrug:
 

Lily flower

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I am still puzzled by how "T" is correlated to "mean" in the OP.

There are "mean" folks, of all types, really. I've met friendly T's who are trying to make the world a better place, and nasty F's who are not. What is the premise of the OP based on? Personal opinion or observation?

It's based on T's being oriented towards "justice" and F's being oriented towards "compassion."
 

amazingdatagirl

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That would be because F is less critical than T
Strongly disagree with [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] today. I had lunch with a bunch of Fe women from work (the network guy convinced me to attend). My head still hurts. The entire conversation consisted of gossipy back-biting. They openly ridiculed the Latino waiter. Ok, the service wasn't great but I can't imagine that kind of behavior from a group of T's.

I guess one's definition of "mean" varies according to the perceptions of the subject. Personally, I prefer cold Ti/Te criticism (even if I disagree with the opinion expressed) to emotionally charged judgments of Fi/Fe. The relational fallout goes on and on.
 

Eric B

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But if they're Fe, they're also J, which tends to be critical as well. Remember, that's the other side of it.
I guess EFP's can be gossipy and backbite as well, but I think they would tend to be less mean and nasty about it, unless someone has really hurt them or otherwise violated an important value (remember, these factors are not about "always" or "never", so any type can behave those ways at times).
 

wolfy

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It isn't a T/F thing. It simply isn't practical to get things done and state your individual opinion clearly if you're always looking to be agreeable. It only makes you weak and diluted.
 

KDude

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It's based on T's being oriented towards "justice" and F's being oriented towards "compassion."

I am torn between the two myself. I really don't see how anyone couldn't be (not that I doubt it.. I see people fall in one camp all the time. I just don't understand).
 

wolfy

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I am torn between the two myself. I really don't see how anyone couldn't be (not that I doubt it.. I see people fall in one camp all the time. I just don't understand).

I really don't see how people could be so clear on where they fall between these two either.

Also sometimes compassion is as short-sighted and damaging as misapplied justice. So it isn't a case of one topping the other.
 
R

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Just a note here. Technically, F isn’t about “compassion.” Here’s the quicky definition from the CAPT website (the guys who own the MBTI):

The T–F index is designed to reflect a person's preference between two contrasting ways of judgment. A person may rely primarily through thinking (T) to decide impersonally on the basis of logical consequences, or a person may rely primarily on feelings (F) to decide primarily on the basis of personal or social values.

F is about “personal or social values,” and those can be pretty harsh in some instances. As others have pointed out, it’s really a toss-up sometimes as to what you’ll get from an F person in the way of judgements.

(By the same token, T isn't necessarily about justice. It's about "logical consequences," which can be kind of a toss-up too. :) )

I myself have used the "justice vs. compassion" comparison in the past in order to contrast how T and F operate in their most advantageous applications. But in the real world, both functions are more neutral than that; both functions can be used to support just about any kind of conclusion or value that one might imagine.
 

Coriolis

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F is about “personal or social values,” and those can be pretty harsh in some instances. As others have pointed out, it’s really a toss-up sometimes as to what you’ll get from an F person in the way of judgements.

(By the same token, T isn't necessarily about justice. It's about "logical consequences," which can be kind of a toss-up too. :) )

I myself have used the "justice vs. compassion" comparison in the past in order to contrast how T and F operate in their most advantageous applications. But in the real world, both functions are more neutral than that; both functions can be used to support just about any kind of conclusion or value that one might imagine.
Yes, T vs. F is essentially objective vs. subjective judgment. I usually see justice contrasted with mercy on these tests. To me, if we have more of the first, we are less dependent upon the second.
 
T

ThatGirl

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Did you all see the news article about how people who are mean get paid better?

I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.

:O What planet do you live on?
 

Virtual ghost

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Did you all see the news article about how people who are mean get paid better?

I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.


Are you sure this is really a T world ?

I think that this world would look like much more differently in the case that it is trully a T world.
Especially since we have a way too much of tertiary and inferior F around for me to call this a trully thinking world.
 

mrcockburn

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it's not that mean people get paid more, people who are paid more are more often perceived as mean. america has an extremely unhealthy lack of assertiveness. there are lots of passive people and lots of aggressive people, but there are few truly assertive people and most people don't know how to recognize one when they see one. american culture (particularly generation Y) tends to take conflict very personally and either avoids it or being exceedingly aggressive, reactive and irrational. assertive people are seen as mean because they face problems head on and solve them as quickly as possible. people misinterpret this as "looking for a fight" which really is just stupid.

This is so true. I'm sick of people getting upset at me for merely refusing to tolerate bullshit.
 

Elfboy

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This is so true. I'm sick of people getting upset at me for merely refusing to tolerate bullshit.

welcome to a collectivist society where people expect you to sacrifice and put up with being treated like an abused child without standing up for yourself. this is why I vote Libertarian :D
 

ceecee

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This is so true. I'm sick of people getting upset at me for merely refusing to tolerate bullshit.


"The world is full of people who make excuses, people who are cowards and people who use the term "nice" to cover up their inability to make a hard decision, say what needs to be said or defend themselves, their position or other people because they're afraid of how they'll be viewed or that someone won't like them anymore.

This is cowardly.

In my experience, many people confuse being cowardly with being nice. It's easier to aim to please and say what others want to hear than to form an opinion and fight for it, even if it means taking a risk or losing your job."

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-19/...cess_1_rich-dad-nice-guys-clown?_s=PM:OPINION
 
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