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  1. #21
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    If Fi was as generous and kind as some descriptions make it out to be, then there would never be a use for any morals, religion, philosophy, interpersonal instruction, or ethical discussion under any conditions - for the fact that some people are merely born/naturally inclined to be one way or another. In this neat little world, no one can be commended or blamed for anything. It's all type related.

    I'm being a little extreme, but my point is simply to point out the uselessness of subscribing too much to functions.. especially labels like "nice" and "mean". Life is more complex than this. Typology is a neat way to try to break it down somewhat, but at the end of the day, it's only a small piece of the puzzle. You won't find all the answers here. Or who knows.. maybe it's worse. Maybe it's complete bullshit. =)

    Besides, it's good to give the rest of your life/experiences some credit anyways. I mean, if you ARE a nice person.. and a Fi type.. don't just say it's Fi. You got to that point in a much more rich way, I'm sure.

  2. #22
    Senior Member uncommonentity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.
    O_O.....What?

    Smart people earn the most money.

    There are far more outcasted Ts suffering in the world than misunderstood Fs I assure you.

    Picture being a super computer in a world full of cavemen versus being a master of hugs in a world full of people who loved to be touched.
    Veni, Vidi, Cessi.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Here's the Mean People Earn More link.

    Agreeableness mostly correlates to F, although it may also correlate to interaction styles (for example, informing styles might be more agreeable).
    I saw that study before, and I also find the terms agreeable & disagreeable confusing/misleading.

    Even though I am an F, on the Big5/SLOAN test, I don't score as agreeable...I'm near the middle & score as an RLUEI (with E standing for "egocentric" as opposed to agreeable). I think this is because I am concerned with autonomy over the group & don't have a warm demeanor. Even though I go with the flow, I am also not overly accommodating because of my loner streak & a sense of ethics which includes my rights.

    However, in the work place, I am also not aggressive nor outspoken. I'm not a team-oriented follower nor a group leader, which makes my agreeableness very contextual. I tend to be in the agreeable category where it is NOT to my advantage (ie. a concern for fairness & the wellbeing of everyone, even at the cost of my own advancement), but disagreeable where it is also NOT valued (ie. not warm or outgoing). Somehow, I think this is worse for advancement, because the aloof demeanor makes for bad first impressions, but I'm also not particularly assertive when it comes to pay/raises/promotions/etc.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    First of all, I think Eric B made a good post here:
    Still, I would argue that Fi generally comes across as less critical than Ti, and even less so than Fe (although Fe can also be very expressively warm, of course).
    That would be because F is less critical than T, and Fi=FP, and Fe=FJ, and P tends to be less critical than J! Both T/F and J/P are parallel "responsiveness' or "agreeableness" dichotomies.
    In my opinion, the reason Fi has such a reputation for stubbornness is that it seems to come out of nowhere. Fi-types are generally very agreeable... until we are very much not. It's surprising if you don't know that aspect of the person, but it's hardly the normal operating mode. Anyone who thinks Fi = (rebellion + stubbornness) is ignoring much of the nature of Fi.

    So I think where types fall on these different scales is interesting, since several of them capture qualities would affect how agreeable/disagreeable one is. And, of course, the scale ratings should be taken with many grains of salt... it's a newer instrument, limitations of self-reporting, etc, etc.

    Even if the scale ratings reflect any kind of reality, they don't tell the whole story. While IFPs tend to rank low on "self-focus", for example, it's also true that we are plenty capable of rationalizing what we want.

    Still, I think the business world highly values Te-related skills (as evidenced by most top-level managers)... and to a lesser extend Fe (people oriented roles) and Ti (technical and faster paced fields). Fi comes in a distant fourth, generally... since its benefits are fairly meta.
    Fi's deep humane focus (in a preferred position; it's different for TJ's tertiary or inferior) tends to make people acquiescent to others, but then if deeply held values are crossed, then they will dig in their heels. If it's really serious, then they could become passionate.
    In either the typological/functional models, or temperament (which is what I'm basically refer to), there are always exceptions to the typical behavior, and rather than contradicting between the different models, even the atypical behavior seems to correspond.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I saw that study before, and I also find the terms agreeable & disagreeable confusing/misleading.

    Even though I am an F, on the Big5/SLOAN test, I don't score as agreeable...I'm near the middle & score as an RLUEI (with E standing for "egocentric" as opposed to agreeable). I think this is because I am concerned with autonomy over the group & don't have a warm demeanor. Even though I go with the flow, I am also not overly accommodating because of my loner streak & a sense of ethics which includes my rights.

    However, in the work place, I am also not aggressive nor outspoken. I'm not a team-oriented follower nor a group leader, which makes my agreeableness very contextual. I tend to be in the agreeable category where it is NOT to my advantage (ie. a concern for fairness & the wellbeing of everyone, even at the cost of my own advancement), but disagreeable where it is also NOT valued (ie. not warm or outgoing). Somehow, I think this is worse for advancement, because the aloof demeanor makes for bad first impressions, but I'm also not particularly assertive when it comes to pay/raises/promotions/etc.
    If I remember correctly, you were more of a Phlegmatic than Supine. Even though the two get bundled together in being represented by both the INP and NF groups, the Phlegmatic is actually moderate rather than totally reserved and agreeable. They can take people or leave them, and usually don't want to expend too much energy with people. So this could explain why some Fi types might be more stubborn and less agreeable. So what you describe sounds just like that.
    The Phlegmatic is also more Calm, while the Supine is Limbic, so the five temperament theory could also explain some variations in Neuroticism, as well as agreeableness.

    Also, @several people and WSJ article, I don't think the opposite of "agreeableness" is supposed to be "disagreeableness". I'm not sure what is; but I believe using that term sort of skews our understanding of what agreeableness is. It almost suggests a character trait vs flaw too much.
    Before I knew about Big Five, or even Type, I had thought "agreeable vs critical" would be a good representation of the Responsiveness factor, but I realized that even "critical" carried too much of a negative connotation and could easily be misunderstood.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  5. #25
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am still puzzled by how "T" is correlated to "mean" in the OP.

    There are "mean" folks, of all types, really. I've met friendly T's who are trying to make the world a better place, and nasty F's who are not. What is the premise of the OP based on? Personal opinion or observation?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #26
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Did you all see the news article about how people who are mean get paid better?

    I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.
    Woah, what? Since when does T = "mean"? I've known some mean Fs in my life. People are individuals. And for what it's worth, I often feel as though I live in a Feeler's world.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  7. #27
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Here is a different article Z Buck provided me a while back...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44084236...rofile_oneline

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am still puzzled by how "T" is correlated to "mean" in the OP.

    There are "mean" folks, of all types, really. I've met friendly T's who are trying to make the world a better place, and nasty F's who are not. What is the premise of the OP based on? Personal opinion or observation?
    It's based on T's being oriented towards "justice" and F's being oriented towards "compassion."

  9. #29
    Member amazingdatagirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That would be because F is less critical than T
    Strongly disagree with @Eric B today. I had lunch with a bunch of Fe women from work (the network guy convinced me to attend). My head still hurts. The entire conversation consisted of gossipy back-biting. They openly ridiculed the Latino waiter. Ok, the service wasn't great but I can't imagine that kind of behavior from a group of T's.

    I guess one's definition of "mean" varies according to the perceptions of the subject. Personally, I prefer cold Ti/Te criticism (even if I disagree with the opinion expressed) to emotionally charged judgments of Fi/Fe. The relational fallout goes on and on.

  10. #30
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    But if they're Fe, they're also J, which tends to be critical as well. Remember, that's the other side of it.
    I guess EFP's can be gossipy and backbite as well, but I think they would tend to be less mean and nasty about it, unless someone has really hurt them or otherwise violated an important value (remember, these factors are not about "always" or "never", so any type can behave those ways at times).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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