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Thread: Having to live in a "T" world.

  1. #11
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    Here's the Mean People Earn More link.

    Agreeableness mostly correlates to F, although it may also correlate to interaction styles (for example, informing styles might be more agreeable).

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Array Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Here's the Mean People Earn More link.

    Agreeableness mostly correlates to F, although it may also correlate to interaction styles (for example, informing styles might be more agreeable).
    disagreeable people can be extremely nice. they just won't agree with you for the sake of agreeing with you and they aren't afraid of necessary conflict. even so, a healthy dose of agreeableness can benefit by making the disagreeable person more pleasant. the title of this article should be "People Who Aren't Afraid of Conflict Earn More"
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  3. #13
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Yeah... I don't really know that I link 'agreeableness' to being nice, and 'disagreeableness' to mean. In this context, it seems agreeableness is simply not being assertive and not, well, disagreeing when something very well might not be right or might be a really poor decision, business-wise. I think it's extremely possible to be generally nice and respectful to people, while still disagreeing with the content of a discussion or stating your case for getting a raise. Things like that. And yes, I would agree that people who are more assertive (assertive does not equal 'mean') and who are willing to disagree in, say, a meeting, may be viewed as having more leadership qualities and therefore more likely to get a raise -- because they're willing to point out the uncomfortable elements of a meeting/discussion that others may not want to bring up.
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  4. #14
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    I have read articles indicating just the contrary -- that people prefer to work with, and to hire, those who are "nice" over those who are competent. Ideally, an employee or coworker will be both, but in 9 jobs out of 10, the first is not a substitute for the second. Ts, especially I_T's (INT"S?), are often on the receiving end of this priority system, as more personable but less competent people get hired and promoted first/faster.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 08-29-2011 at 03:22 PM. Reason: fixed misplaced words
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  5. #15
    Secret Sex Freak Array Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Do you want to be nice, or rich?
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    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Array KDude's Avatar
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    What about Fi is necessarily agreeable?

    It's "feeling", yes, but it is introverted. And although it's introverted feeling, it applies in both EFPs and IFPs. The extroverts can still be stubborn or even snobby in their own way (yes, even ESFPs). Ti is just as likely to take a detached approach in work or relationships and address things logically (in it's own mind) - and be just as inclined to compromises. There's no guarantee either is going to be very predictable. The one thing about many Ti types though is they won't think about relations or act as "personable" on the surface. But that doesn't mean they're mean. Or that F is nicer. It's complicated.

  7. #17
    Emerging Array Tallulah's Avatar
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    What @KDude said.

    And I've been on the disagreeable side of Fi many times in my life. It's not fun. Especially when the original perception of the "nice" or "mean" thing to do is just that...a matter of perception.
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  8. #18


    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Did you all see the news article about how people who are mean get paid better?

    I am so sick of this world rewarding "T"s. We "F"s try to make the world a nicer and friendlier place, but the T's just keep winning.

    Just to make a point:

    What Makes a Good President?: Psychologists assess the personality of every president in American history

    Stubbornness and disagreeableness may not be traits you want in a neighbor or a spouse, but researchers say that these two traits are associated with great presidents.[...]

    Results of the research indicate that great presidents, besides being stubborn and disagreeable, are more extraverted, open to experience, assertive, achievement striving, excitement seeking and more open to fantasy, aesthetics, feelings, actions, ideas and values. Historically great presidents were low on straightforwardness, vulnerability and order.

    [Rest of article:]
    I think it’s taken for granted that people want a tough-minded, no-nonsense go-getter in leadership positions. Meantime, people who score higher on agreeableness probably avoid such positions, not wanting the conflict and high stress that go with such positions.

    In other words, I don't think it means that the world is somehow a “T world.” It just means that it’s apples and oranges. Everyone crowds into the easy jobs and then bitches about the low pay; meantime the higher-paying, stressful jobs tend to require a certain type of person, and fewer people qualify for them and can put up with them over the long-term.

    As such, everyone’s probably exactly where they should be. And if the financial compensation is higher for the more stressful positions, that’s probably as it should be; those guys are probably going to have a shorter, more stressful life anyway.

    (Note that the survey in the original "Mean People Earn More" article was self-reported, so it probably didn’t correct for factors like the type of work being done by the person reporting.)

  9. #19
    Senior Member Array NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Do you really think this is a "T" world? I could be wrong as I'm asserting this via my intuition, but I think the majority of people are feelers. Or did you just mean that people have a "T" mentality, i.e., unethical?

    Are all thinkers assholes and incapable of compassion?
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  10. #20
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    First of all, I think Eric B made a good post here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B
    Sherlock is on to the right idea. The correlators try to map Big 5 directly onto the four MBTI dichotmomies, and while I/E is an obvious match for Extraversion and S/N to Openness, (and new special MBTI form factor Comfort-Discomfort made to match Neuroticism), the other two actually match Keirsey's directive/informative (Agreeableness) and pragmatic/cooperative (Conscientiousness). These do not always correspond to T/F. For S's they do, but for N's it is actually J/P. (Which is assumed to always be Conscientiousness).
    Still, I would argue that Fi generally comes across as less critical than Ti, and even less so than Fe (although Fe can also be very expressively warm, of course). In my opinion, the reason Fi has such a reputation for stubbornness is that it seems to come out of nowhere. Fi-types are generally very agreeable... until we are very much not. It's surprising if you don't know that aspect of the person, but it's hardly the normal operating mode. Anyone who thinks Fi = (rebellion + stubbornness) is ignoring much of the nature of Fi.

    Looking at some of the MBTI Step III developmental scales:

    Harmony: Reflects an agreeable attitude toward people, with a high value placed on getting along with others and maintaining good feeling about people. From most Harmonious to least:
    (From Table 7.35)
    ISFJ 4.16
    ISFP 4.09
    ESFJ 3.84
    ESFP 3.82
    INFP 3.51
    ENFJ 3.39
    INFJ 3.39
    ENFP 3.23
    ISTJ 3.01
    ISTP 2.99
    ESTJ 2.83
    ESTJ 2.61
    INTJ 2.43
    INTP 2.28
    ENTJ 2.14
    ENTP 2.10

    Flexibility: Reflects adaptability to evolving circumstances along with a preference for environments that accept and encourage such an approach, rather than those with rigid demands. A person scoring high on Flexibility is adapting to changing circumstances and able to "go with the flow." From most Flexible to least:
    (from Table 7.30)
    INFP 4.19
    INTP 4.09
    ENFP 3.99
    ISFP 3.86
    ENTP 3.77
    ISTP 3.74
    ESFP 3.58
    ESTP 3.58
    INFJ 2.73
    INTJ 2.71
    ENFJ 2.64
    ISFJ 2.54
    ENTJ 2.48
    ISTJ 2.48
    ESFJ 2.40
    ESTJ 2.24

    Self Focus: Reflects a tendency to consider one's own interests ahead of any consideration of others' interests and to view things primarily in terms of their impact on oneself.
    (from Table 7.41)
    ESTP 7.33
    ISTP 7.30
    ESTJ 7.29
    ISTJ 7.27
    ESFP 7.25
    ENTP 7.15
    ISFP 7.14
    ENTJ 7.13
    ESFJ 7.09
    ISFJ 7.06
    INTJ 7.04
    INTP 6.99
    ENFJ 6.83
    ENFP 6.71
    INFJ 6.66
    INFP 6.63

    Stubbornness: Indicates a tendency to resist changing one's view or course of action, regardless of emerging new information or valid objections of others. It is important to take type into account in assessing the meaning of this scale. For example, an INTJ has a natural proclivity to be stubborn. But for a Perceiving type, stubbornness may interact with an emphasize other type characteristics that can create difficulties for the person.
    (from Table 7.44)
    ISTP 1.37
    ESTP 1.30
    ENTP 1.23
    INTP 1.21
    ISTJ 1.18
    INTJ 1.17
    ESTJ 1.13
    ISFP 1.08
    ESFP 1.04
    ISFJ 1.02
    ENFP 0.99
    ESFJ 0.95
    INFP 0.95
    INFJ 0.93
    ENFJ 0.88

    So I think where types fall on these different scales is interesting, since several of them capture qualities would affect how agreeable/disagreeable one is. And, of course, the scale ratings should be taken with many grains of salt... it's a newer instrument, limitations of self-reporting, etc, etc.

    Even if the scale ratings reflect any kind of reality, they don't tell the whole story. While IFPs tend to rank low on "self-focus", for example, it's also true that we are plenty capable of rationalizing what we want.

    Still, I think the business world highly values Te-related skills (as evidenced by most top-level managers)... and to a lesser extend Fe (people oriented roles) and Ti (technical and faster paced fields). Fi comes in a distant fourth, generally... since its benefits are fairly meta.

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