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[NF] Consoling an NF

Elfboy

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It really doesn't matter which NF he is... I think the fact that he has a good friend who is willing to listen, idea generate, and be there for him is enough for just about anyone.

I think the water skiing idea is fabulous. It will give him a day outdoors enjoying the weather, and a physical activity to help give him a mental break from what he is thinking about.

I don't know if it would help at all... But perhaps even trying to put a positive spin in the fact that he did stand up for a principle. This world so quickly wants us to put physical comfort above anything higher. I know that it's extra tricky with a wife and kids involved, but he should still know he's a great father/role model because he didn't compromise.

I had a summer job after highschool where I was witness to some sexual harassment against a friend of mine. I spoke up and almost got the two men I worked with fired. It was at the company that my dad also worked for, so when my mom found out about what I had done, she got mad at me saying this could reflect badly on my dad. I in turn felt horrible and extra conflicted. I ended up getting threatened by the ex-marine I worked with, and didn't say anything to anyone because I felt like I had done something wrong. So I look back on the episode and think that it would have been nice to have someone agree with me on what I did. I don't know if that helps you at all though.

And lastly, if your friend seemed like an INFJ before this major stress occurred then he probably is an INFJ.

it's about cognitive functions, not what he seems like, and this man is a clear Fi user. his entire dilemma is
- impulsively acting on an urge to carry out justice and be true to his values
- he feels what he did was morally unacceptable because he put his family in jeopardy
 

INTPness

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it's about cognitive functions, not what he seems like, and this man is a clear Fi user. his entire dilemma is
- impulsively acting on an urge to carry out justice and be true to his values
- he feels what he did was morally unacceptable because he put his family in jeopardy

I'll have him take an MBTI test in the coming week or so as I help him look for jobs. Then I'll report back that he is, indeed, an INFJ. He's about as J as you can get, for one. So very clearly not a P. And so very clearly strong Fe. And no Ne in sight. Never heard a pinch of Te either. But, I'll introduce him to the test and report back just to be sure.
 

INTPness

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It really doesn't matter which NF he is... I think the fact that he has a good friend who is willing to listen, idea generate, and be there for him is enough for just about anyone.

I think the water skiing idea is fabulous. It will give him a day outdoors enjoying the weather, and a physical activity to help give him a mental break from what he is thinking about.

I don't know if it would help at all... But perhaps even trying to put a positive spin in the fact that he did stand up for a principle. This world so quickly wants us to put physical comfort above anything higher. I know that it's extra tricky with a wife and kids involved, but he should still know he's a great father/role model because he didn't compromise.

I had a summer job after highschool where I was witness to some sexual harassment against a friend of mine. I spoke up and almost got the two men I worked with fired. It was at the company that my dad also worked for, so when my mom found out about what I had done, she got mad at me saying this could reflect badly on my dad. I in turn felt horrible and extra conflicted. I ended up getting threatened by the ex-marine I worked with, and didn't say anything to anyone because I felt like I had done something wrong. So I look back on the episode and think that it would have been nice to have someone agree with me on what I did. I don't know if that helps you at all though.

And lastly, if your friend seemed like an INFJ before this major stress occurred then he probably is an INFJ.

I can haz jet ski? :harley:

Yeah, I just got the feeling talking to him yesterday that he probably hasn't done anything like this in YEARS!!! I know when I do these kinds of activities, I feel completely refreshed and alive. It has a way of putting things in perspective. Like, OK, something bad happened, but I can still have a really good time and enjoy life.
 

Elfboy

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I'll have him take an MBTI test in the coming week or so as I help him look for jobs. Then I'll report back that he is, indeed, an INFJ. He's about as J as you can get, for one. So very clearly not a P. And so very clearly strong Fe. And no Ne in sight. Never heard a pinch of Te either. But, I'll introduce him to the test and report back just to be sure.

I await his results :D
also, saying "he tested J" by itself will not be enough to convince me. some of the most J people I've ever met have been INFPs. that being said, if you have decent evidence for Ni/Fe, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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it's about cognitive functions, not what he seems like, and this man is a clear Fi user. his entire dilemma is
- impulsively acting on an urge to carry out justice and be true to his values
- he feels what he did was morally unacceptable because he put his family in jeopardy

It's also about the fact that the guy is under a ton of stress (cough, shadow functions, cough). When I am super stressed I turn super Fe and Ni blackhole and drive myself insane and (most likely) everyone within a 40 mile psychic radius.

It's also about the fact that I would weigh the opinion of someone who has spent weeks with the guy over one random comment :wink:. (If an Ne user like an INTP hasn't seen Ne pong from his INF friend, then they aren't an INFP.)

But this really digresses from the main point of this thread since consoling an INFP and INFJ really aren't that different. What INTPness is doing sounds just fine. People have spent thousands of years comforting each other without the hindrance of personality type theory. I think anyone would appreciate having someone who is willing to listen, offer support, and then going to do an activity.

TL;DR: I like rocks.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I can haz jet ski? :harley:

Yeah, I just got the feeling talking to him yesterday that he probably hasn't done anything like this in YEARS!!! I know when I do these kinds of activities, I feel completely refreshed and alive. It has a way of putting things in perspective. Like, OK, something bad happened, but I can still have a really good time and enjoy life.

Exactly. I think INXX types are especially prone to sinking into the depths of their mind far too easily, and really need to come up for air more often. Forcing yourself to be outdoors noticing "in the moment" details about your external environment, and doing an activity that prevents you from thinking... allows you to achieve an almost system reboot. So I think your water ski idea is excellent. Or maybe biking together, or tennis... anything physical and out of doors should do the trick. If you both like jogging, maybe you could make it a weekly thing to do together. Like every Saturday morning you two hit a few miles together.

Otherwise the rest of what you are doing sounds awesome. Perhaps you just needed to be reminded of that fact yourself with this thread. Sometimes when I counsel people a lot I start feeling like I am not doing enough for them, or my well needs to be restocked so that I can be a better friend/counselor, etc with more stamina to listen.
 

INTPness

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I await his results :D
also, saying "he tested J" by itself will not be enough to convince me. some of the most J people I've ever met have been INFPs. that being said, if you have decent evidence for Ni/Fe, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong.

Oh, Elfboy. If you're not willing to accept an MBTI test result at face value (you want FURTHER convincing), then it's clear that you're just trying to hold your ground for the sake of argument. This is already so far off topic, I'm surprised I'm still discussing it. I know the guy is INFJ and also know that he's not INFP. I know that he displays lots of Fe. I recognize the Fe, I can even connect with it on some level, being Fe myself. I know that he doesn't display either Ne or Te. I've looked for an Ne connection and it's not to be found. Fe connection, on the other hand, is there. And he's much warmer than even I am - he's more Fe than I am. He's better at it, he's more natural at it, he's more fluid with it. Wouldn't it be silly for me to suggest to you that I know the MBTI types of your IRL friends better than you do? If you still want to argue that my friend is INFP based on never having spent 1 minute with the guy, then by all means, knock yourself out. But, you'll have to take up that argument with yourself, cuz I'm bowing out.
 

cascadeco

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But this really digresses from the main point of this thread since consoling an INFP and INFJ really aren't that different. What INTPness is doing sounds just fine. People have spent thousands of years comforting each other without the hindrance of personality type theory. I think anyone would appreciate having someone who is willing to listen, offer support, and then going to do an activity.

To the bolded - indeed!!!

Also, it's not like Fe users are in a valueless vacuum without having any causes/beliefs whatsoever that they believe in and which will dictate their choices. Saying that an Fe user can't possibly have his own set of values is just as erroneous as saying an Fi user can't possibly care about the values/needs of others.

INTPness - I think it'll just take him some time to sort things out in his own head and for solidity to be reached. Doesn't mean you words aren't of use; just means it might take him time to integrate them and weave them into a new form and vision for his own life. He's mad at himself; any TiFe words you have, tbh, aren't going to be of much use because he's already thought of all that. He needs to heal himself emotionally and get to the point where he can forgive himself and move on. That'll just take some time. In the meantime, just be there if he needs to talk - just be a presence. And if he doesn't want to talk, he doesn't. Might even focus less on talking about the issue and more about just doing an activity with him.
 

INTPness

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To the bolded - indeed!!!

Also, it's not like Fe users are in a valueless vacuum without having any causes/beliefs whatsoever that they believe in and which will dictate their choices. Saying that an Fe user can't possibly have his own set of values is just as erroneous as saying an Fi user can't possibly care about the values/needs of others.

INTPness - I think it'll just take him some time to sort things out in his own head and for solidity to be reached. Doesn't mean you words aren't of use; just means it might take him time to integrate them and weave them into a new form and vision for his own life. He's mad at himself; any TiFe words you have, tbh, aren't going to be of much use because he's already thought of all that. He needs to heal himself emotionally and get to the point where he can forgive himself and move on. That'll just take some time. In the meantime, just be there if he needs to talk - just be a presence. And if he doesn't want to talk, he doesn't. Might even focus less on talking about the issue and more about just doing an activity with him.

Yeah, I like the activity idea. I'd love to push him out of a plane at a moment like this. :horor: With a parachute of course. But, yeah, just something to take his mind off of it for a bit, help him to get out of the Ni loop, and to engage in other things for a while. Something fun.

Thanks to everyone for all the input.
 

cascadeco

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^ Yeah, and to Saturned's point, INxx types are very prone to getting into internal thinking loops - of different forms, naturally, but it tends towards the same net result of spiralling and mindf*cking something to death. It becomes almost a prison. And often once in that state, input isn't going to be terribly helpful - the person isn't going to be able to 'do' anything with it. Temporary breaks - doing something fun - can be quite helpful. It very well will only be a temporary reprieve, as obviously the problem still exists and needs to be resolved and worked through, but it's not like when one is in that totally inward overanalyzation state, further analyzing is really going to help. ;) May as well break that up a bit, as they can always go back to analyzing/beating themselves up once they're back home again. ;) Joking aside... the activity itself can on the plus side get the happy-chemicals moving through the body, and could remove the burden of an overly negative emotional outlook, moving it more towards a neutral/optimistic mindset. Once the mind swings more towards that neutral state (at the very least), THEN that's when actual productivity and moving towards something new - taking action - will occur. I don't think the taking-action steps are fully possible when still in that uber-negative mindeframe/space.

Basically any introverted cognitive loop brings one towards self-absorption and one can further distance oneself from clear thinking/action; being able to break that and get into an extroverted mode -- either via activity or via talking/venting it out -- is going to help.

He'll in the end have to heal himself, but his ability to ping his thoughts/feelings off of you can act as a release and sometimes help in the reframing process. I know for myself, the ACT of releasing a lot of this stuff is half the healing process; also once I verbalize, it sometimes becomes clear to me via verbalizing what is actually not true and what I do need to focus on. Add activities totally unrelated to the problem at hand, and it could further help him out of his hyper-focusing on the problem- help him out of that perspective lock he's dug himself into. It may be a slow process but you're not doing anything wrong!!!!
 

SilkRoad

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It's also about the fact that the guy is under a ton of stress (cough, shadow functions, cough). When I am super stressed I turn super Fe and Ni blackhole and drive myself insane and (most likely) everyone within a 40 mile psychic radius.

It's also about the fact that I would weigh the opinion of someone who has spent weeks with the guy over one random comment :wink:. (If an Ne user like an INTP hasn't seen Ne pong from his INF friend, then they aren't an INFP.)

But this really digresses from the main point of this thread since consoling an INFP and INFJ really aren't that different. What INTPness is doing sounds just fine. People have spent thousands of years comforting each other without the hindrance of personality type theory. I think anyone would appreciate having someone who is willing to listen, offer support, and then going to do an activity.

TL;DR: I like rocks.

Yes, I was told that I sounded more INFP-like/Fi user at least once when I posted on this forum feeling rather distressed and saying that my feelings had been invalidated by a friend. I believe the thread was "please let me feel what I feel" or something like that.

I can easily go into that mode if I'm distressed and I feel like someone is telling me to "stop feeling" a certain way. But I'm not that attached to my feelings otherwise, I mainly view them as something to work with. It's more like "damn, I wish I could stop feeling this way because it's so destructive and I feel crappy...but I can't, I can't, I can't." Being told to stop feeling like that in that situation is no help at all because I desperately want to but it's not just like throwing a switch. It just feels even more frustrating to be told that.

I think that's probably the only time on this forum that anyone has suggested I'm anything other than INFJ. ;) And I can see how it would happen in that situation but that doesn't change the fact that day to day I act much more like an INFJ than an INFP!
 
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Glycerine

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Although the type doesn't really matter, the stress mechanisms described in the OP seemed much more aligned with NFJs than with the NFPs I have known.
 
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21%

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He didn't 'mess up'. The world is messed up for punishing whistle-blowers. In a way, he did the right thing, and is setting a good example for his children to become good people later in life. I'd rather have my dad lose his job than tolerating something immoral at his workplace. I would be proud of him -- even if that means we are set back financially. I think he needs to realize this, and at the same time realize that the world is NOT fair. Navigate it. Make it work.

Could it be that one of the main things is that he is depressed by the fact that "the bad guys won"? This makes the world a terrible, meaningless place. No, the bad guys didn't win. He probably inspired a lot of people at his workplace. Years later, someone else would be saying "There was a guy who stood up and did what he thought was right. He got fired. I was too cowardly to do the same thing at that time, but I wish I did." And that might give them courage to stand up and do the right thing in the future.

The only thing that will make the situation better is him finding a new job. Encourage him to do so. Like I said, the world isn't fair. He needs to know that he did the right thing. And the only thing that will ensure that "the bad guys didn't win" is for him to move on and create a better life for himself and his family.
 

INTPness

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He didn't 'mess up'. The world is messed up for punishing whistle-blowers. In a way, he did the right thing, and is setting a good example for his children to become good people later in life. I'd rather have my dad lose his job than tolerating something immoral at his workplace. I would be proud of him -- even if that means we are set back financially. I think he needs to realize this, and at the same time realize that the world is NOT fair. Navigate it. Make it work.

Could it be that one of the main things is that he is depressed by the fact that "the bad guys won"? This makes the world a terrible, meaningless place. No, the bad guys didn't win. He probably inspired a lot of people at his workplace. Years later, someone else would be saying "There was a guy who stood up and did what he thought was right. He got fired. I was too cowardly to do the same thing at that time, but I wish I did." And that might give them courage to stand up and do the right thing in the future.

The only thing that will make the situation better is him finding a new job. Encourage him to do so. Like I said, the world isn't fair. He needs to know that he did the right thing. And the only thing that will ensure that "the bad guys didn't win" is for him to move on and create a better life for himself and his family.

Yeah, I don't necessarily think he messed up. I'm kind of proud of the guy to be honest. But, he kept saying that he messed up because he should have known he would have gotten fired. He said he considered it, but didn't think it was a real possibility. And when it happened, it shocked him. And so he keeps saying that he messed up and made a stupid mistake - not because of blowing the whistle, but because he didn't consider his kids. It's one of those situations that, in my opinion, he stood up for the right thing, but if I would have done what he did, I would fully expect to get fired. The fact that he "didn't think he would actually get fired" is the surprising part to me.
 

21%

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Yeah, I don't necessarily think he messed up. I'm kind of proud of the guy to be honest. But, he kept saying that he messed up because he should have known he would have gotten fired. He said he considered it, but didn't think it was a real possibility. And when it happened, it shocked him. And so he keeps saying that he messed up and made a stupid mistake - not because of blowing the whistle, but because he didn't consider his kids. It's one of those situations that, in my opinion, he stood up for the right thing, but if I would have done what he did, I would fully expect to get fired. The fact that he "didn't think he would actually get fired" is the surprising part to me.
Sometimes NFs have a problem grasping how cruel the world can be :blush:
 

sciski

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Yeah, I don't necessarily think he messed up. I'm kind of proud of the guy to be honest.

I'd be proud of him too. Do you know what his wife thinks/feels about the situation? Have you communicated that you respect what he did? Support and approval (for the principle of what he did, if not the result) from his closest friends and especially family could really help. Reiterate that he is not a fortuneteller or mind reader... he could not have known they would react that way. His fault was assuming they were better people than they were.

As for the Fe/Fi debate, he sounds Fe... if he was Fi dominant, chances are he would not be beating himself up over standing up for his values. He's probably now feeling the bite of taking an Fi sort of action, and Fi feels pretty bad for IxFJs (ie, "I am a selfish jerk! How dare I only think about myself!").
 

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If ever there was a reason to be fired, it is this one.

He's not incompetent, unwanted, useless. He's just too good for that place.

Best reason to get sacked, EVER.

He should hold his chin high. He's earned it.
 

21%

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Do you know what his wife thinks/feels about the situation? Have you communicated that you respect what he did? Support and approval (for the principle of what he did, if not the result) from his closest friends and especially family could really help. Reiterate that he is not a fortuneteller or mind reader... he could not have known they would react that way. His fault was assuming they were better people than they were.
Yes, if his wife is quietly (or not so quietly) resentful of what he did, nothing you say will help! But you said she was an NF -- so she might understand? (That said, NFs in mom-mode could be very judgmental about things that jeopardize their children's well-being)
 
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